If you had to pay?

After WWII the US’s national debt was up to around 117% of GDP it was brought down in just 36 years less than one generation (by 1981 it was down to 32.5%) until successive right wing and neo-liberal policies (tax cuts and anti-communist military spending) from the 1980 onward increased it cumulating in the profligate spending and tax cuts of the Bush Admin. At the same time the free market ideology (deregulation, hollowing out of manufacturing and a belief that the ‘new’ markets were safe) set up the financial sector for a fall and has caused the debt to rise to around 80-90% of GDP.

The problem isn’t ‘government’ the problem is a right wing, wealth supported, neo-liberal, free market ideology that hijacked the system.

Try - The Decline and Fall of the America Empire: Part One 1945-
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...?t=435209&f=36

Fall in top rate tax
1945 - 94%
1970 – 70%
1982 - 50%
1990 - 28%
2010 – 33%


Rise in top levels of pay
In the 1950’s CEO pay was 25-50 times that of an average worker that has risen to 300-500 times by 2007.
A bigger gap than any other developed nation.

Trade deficit
1960 – Trade surplus of 3.5 billion
2008 – Trade deficit of 690 billion
(The last time the US posted a trade surplus was in 1975)

Decline in manufacturing
1965 - Manufacturing accounted for 53% of the US’s economy.
2004 – It accounted for 9%
The Economist (10/1/2005) stated: “For the first time since the industrial revolution, fewer than 10% of American workers are now employed in manufacturing.”

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Can i restate -

Here we are talking of ‘government services’ in the universal sense, theoretically open to anyone, but probably limited by circumstance. It is not ‘personal service’ in the singular sense (for example from one individual to another) open only to that individual for a good or service.

So everyone within the system is getting the same amount in ‘government service’ it is just that due to circumstance they may or may not be using it at all or to the same extent or even be entitled to it. But it is still there, and if circumstances change, the system is still there.

For example let us take a road system that is publically built and maintained through taxation. Everyone pays in but not everyone is going to use the system to the same extent or every use all of it. Someone in New York may not even know about a road in New Mexico and may never use it but they might be thankful of it if circumstances change and they move to New Mexico. So the road built in New Mexico may not be directly necessary for a family living in New York and a road built in New York might not be directly necessary for family living in New Mexico but together they contribute to the whole system.

 

One more time, "If the government services provided you and your family directly required you to pay for them, how much would you consider to be a fair price charged per family member to be paid to government per week? And what services does government provide that you feel necessary for you and your family that you would be willing to pay for?"

You can include services that you don't currently require, but would be available if the need arose if you wish, and include that in the amount you would be willing to pay and consider to be fair.

 

And again

Here we are talking of ‘government services’ in the universal sense, theoretically open to anyone, but probably limited by circumstance. It is not ‘personal service’ in the singular sense (for example from one individual to another) open only to that individual for a good or service.

So everyone within the system is getting the same amount in ‘government service’ it is just that due to circumstance they may or may not be using it at all or to the same extent or even be entitled to it. But it is still there, and if circumstances change, the system is still there.

For example let us take a road system that is publically built and maintained through taxation. Everyone pays in but not everyone is going to use the system to the same extent or every use all of it. Someone in New York may not even know about a road in New Mexico and may never use it but they might be thankful of it if circumstances change and they move to New Mexico. So the road built in New Mexico may not be directly necessary for a family living in New York and a road built in New York might not be directly necessary for family living in New Mexico but together they contribute to the whole system.

 

While most roads are built by taxation, some are built by developers and then turned over to government for maintenance, not all receive Federal funding. But, the ability to move products, as well as people, to and from consumers Nation wide does fall into the category of benefiting all, so you could add the cost of that in your figure.

Oh, and since I originated this thread, the "government services" I am referring to are only those provided by the Federal government, not including those that may be provided by State or local government.

 

I know this is a year old. But what the hell?

 

Govt taxes pisses me off thinking about it. Besides the local school I dont get any govt. services. No trash, no water or sewer, no snow trucks. The only benefit we get is school for the kids. $6000 a year per kid is what the school gets from the fed.
Id say a fair price would be $50 a week. Yet I pay taxes of about 40% of income. Out of a $500 paycheck $198 is taken in taxes. Tell me what the fuck the govt does for me thats worth 40% of my income? Hell yeah give us National healthcare. Thats the least the govt. can do to give us something real for all the taxes they take from us.
Ask the farmers next to me. They have million dollar farms yet are getting federal tax and cash benefits. What the hells up with that. Farmers income is at the highest level ever and the govt, in their lame ass duck session are passing more farm aid bills. WTF is up with that pork shit! Im selling cash crops and firewood and the govt aint getting one fukin cent! I've paid enough!

 

Geeeeez.

 

LOL I did qualify that rant with "...taxes piss me off thinking about it.." Thats real world anger brother.
Its fun to debate the 'citizen and the state' but when it comes down to real life I experience the thumb of govt. pressing down ever harder. The older you get and the less debt and breeding more little citizens of the state the more the govt. takes. The more 'free' you become the less govt. lets you keep. Itrs slow, and insidious. My state has billions in surplus. They dont need all the tax money they take in. They do because they can. The county needs tax money from property owners, not farms though, households with kids have their taxes raised while the housing market crashes and property values are halved, except farm land. Its on a steady course upward. Have to pay for that new jail. We have a poor city surrounded by rich county farms. No economic development. No planning. No mission,homeless shelters, one little soup kitchen. No domestic violence womans shelters. They dont want people in hardship in their county. How do these self interest servicing Repubs keep getting voted in???? Baffles me...

 

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Ya......Red State Welfare has to do with cash payments to farmers, agricultural price supports and restrictions on agricultural imports.

If we could import it would help poor nations, like in Africa who only have agriculture to export. If we could import sugar then our tax would no longer be needed to convert Floridas Everglades into giant sugar plantations.

Despite the Republican retoric, Red States continue to grab at Washingtons cash subsidies. Perhaps this is the payola for participating in the log-rolling games of Congress. Let these Red State farmers lead by example and end the subsidies.

 

Does anyone ever actually look at the data related to what they complain about?

The "Catalog of Federal Domestic Assistance" is available to view and/or download at www.cfa.gov, detailing the 2,191 Federal programs which received funding in 2012.

In 1980 there were 1,123 programs, reduced to 1.013 in 1985 by elimination and consolidation, increasing to 1,176 in 1990, 1,390 in 1995, 1,425 in 2000, and 1,696 in 2006.

The Department of Agriculture funding can be downloaded at www.usda.gov which might provide some more realistic insight as to where the money is actually being spent.