I'm going to wear the hijab

Ever consider it could be because of geography. I'm sure that if you traveled to some Muslim countries you would not be treated so nicely,
1) because you're an American
2) because you're a woman.

Now about the Christian/Judaic Bible. There is a very good reason it is full of accounts of rape, murder, war, incest, all the worst of humanity is because unlike the majority of other religions the Bible recounts a HISTORY of a group of HUMANS.
Look into the history of any friggin' culture/civilization/national religious identity and you will find countless stories of rape, murder, war, incest, all the worst of humanity.
The MAIN reason you don't find it as much in other religious writings is because the majority of other religious scriptures are more like instruction manuals on gaining enlightenment or some strict code of law that must be adhered to gain salvation, or just a collection of wisdom, not actual historical accounts of real people.

That is the same reason the Bible doesn't talk about dinosaurs, UFO's, and whatever stuff people try to use to cast doubt on it's veracity. The answer is really simple, the topic of the Bible is God's relationship with man as played out in allegory, metaphor and actual events via the people who came to be known as Jews.
If I'm writing a book about car repair, I'm not going to add a chapter about farming cotton, so why should people expect the Bible to be the wikipedia of all things when it never purports to be that in the first place?

Why are those little details always overlooked?

 

Yes, brother Emanresu. I know you're no pot. However, you might judge Islam prematurely. I'm, of course, a Christian, not a scholar of Islam, so I'm in no position to give more than my own understanding. But "Allah" is the same God worshiped by Jews as Yahweh, and by Christians as "God". The Qur'an tells us that Allah sent prophets to all peoples of the world (Qur'an 2:213; 16:36; 35:24). Of course these included the Hebrew prophets and Jesus (Isa), but many more as well: 124,000, according to Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 5, 169; as many as 186,000 or 224,000 by other counts. Their messages became garbled by people who heard them. Muhammad is simply the "seal" of the prophets. He respected "people of the book" who received their message from others.

Your criticism reminds me of similar ones directed against Jesus for the statement attributed to Him in John 14:6: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." That's what it says. What does it mean? That everybody has to be a Christian to get to heaven? Or that everybody has to submit to the message of God, as revealed through His prophets? I prefer the latter interpretation.

 

Nope. My views as an atheist are as follows: I currently do not hold the belief that any god exists, however that lack of belief is tentative and subject to revision in the light of new evidence and interpretations. There is nothing intolerant about that, and more importantly I am not dogmatically rejecting anyone's faith (especially faiths that I've never heard of yet). I think there is a relevant difference between saying 'There is no god but the god that I believe in' and 'I tentatively reject your hypothesis regarding the existence of a god, but I'm willing to change my mind if you can provide a good argument.'

You seem adamant about demonstrating that I have character flaws. I assure you my character is flawed in many ways, but that seems like a boring topic of discussion.

 

I agree, just as most Christians, and Jews, and Buddhists, and agnostics and atheists that I have ever met are decent people. I can easily accept that a person is a good person, while having criticisms about their ideologies. Some people in this thread seem to have trouble separating people from their ideas.

 

I think you are somehow wrong. As far as I know, Iranians, either Muslim or non-Muslim, like Americans and of course Europeans. So you'll be welcomed if you travel to Iran, aside from who you are. A religious person or a non-religious one. And aside form your gender, male or female.

I do mind. I changed my mind. I'm not sure what is that darkness you mention, but, so sorry, I think you are exactly in a real darkness now. You are hurting yourself, and I don't want to help you with that.

 

Well, that's not strictly atheism, imo.

Not really. I was just reacting to the initial post you made.
I apologised for not getting to know your thoughts more succinctly.
I have read some of your other posts in other threads, and can see you are not focused just on Islam.

I have also had the chance to re-read the thread, and I will try and explain why I reacted the way I did.

These are the comments I would say are kind of arrogant, very ignorant and somewhat hateful:

RooRshack

Nobody seems to have made any great effort in challenging these comments. They seem to have just past with out much comment.

The other person who made some choice comments is no longer with us, so I won't quote his posts. It might just be the reason he is no longer with us.

All other comments/discussions here have been even handed, imo.

From what I can see this has not been said in this thread.
It is in Resistance isn't futile's signature.

This is what you had to say about that quote:

If you want to discuss that particular quote, ok, lets do that.
The reason I quoted other passages similar to that quote, was because it isn't unique amongst religious thought/text.
So I thought critiquing it was a little redundant.

This is why I thought you were singling out Islam, but you later say the same charge can be made of other religions.

I can understand why we had crossed wires because in your mind this is why you posted what you did (I think):

I said I perhaps didn't get your point - I do now. The reason for my confusion is that nobody did say: any anti-Islam statement is 'intolerant' or 'hateful'.

So from my perspective - there were some arrogant, ignorant, and hateful statements - which should have or were challenged.

So - all in all - your argument seemed to be starting from a false premise.

RooRshack

I guess my point was about atheistic arrogance, regardless of empirical facts that all three of us may agree on. And also the arguments Emanresu was making about that Islamic quote.

 

No amount of bulk and tomes of quotes from any religion is going to amount to anything since not a single whit of any of them are based in reason or observation or science.

The unreasonable can be summarily dismissed without reason.

Confine your actions with your dress, with your religion, but you will never be other than you are, ever....

Religions
are
traps
and merely
a
mode of
commerce.

 

I'm not trying to be arrogant, it's not about what I am, it's about what islam is.

I argee, nobody came in and said than any criticism of islam is inherently closed minded and bigoted and all that, but when I made what I considered fair, fact-based criticism, I was deluged with comments about how closed-minded, ignorant, and hateful I am -- others who criticized islam got the same. They didn't say it was ANY criticism of islam, but the only person who I've seen be even halfway successful about it is duck, and that's because he's had to put so much sugar on top to even be able to engague in a conversation, that the OP has been very condescending to him, and used any post in which he was not forceful to try to bowl him over and make him sound ignorant and lost, and though he's shown that to be far from the truth he has still made absolutly no headway and had no concessions from the OP.

As to whoever's not with us, I'm afraid I missed that, if you're saying someone was banned for criticizing a hateful repressive rape culture on a free speech forum, that's a damn shame, and I hope that the error is recognized and fixed.

I won't play ball: if islam was a tiny hateful murderous sect, nobody would give them the time of day or accept their crap for one second, but they're a giant murderous legion, and so it's totally ignorant and bigoted and hateful to criticize them? Give me a break.

I am, of course, not saying that every adherent of islam is personally evil. But that does not abdicate them of responsibility for what they are a part of. There may be social situations where they have no choice (other than losing their head or being stoned) but other than that, people who willingly convert to islam MUST be advised of the serious problems with it. The same with christianity, but, this is not a thread about someone who found christianity, but someone who found islam.

 

None of it matters. We're flawed, meaningless ,biological sacks of meat with egos,foolish ideas and constant strife ,living on the surface of a speeding, little ball hurtling through space to whence we know not. We remain ignorant regarding the nature of existance relative to our own fates (other than a little science)and what flows from that is what we have. Pick your idea--stick with it and believe it's "the way". We all do it. It's popular. It's reinforcing and brings joy to many and death to many others. La-de fuckin' da. Howdy fellow travelers--have a nice day.

.

 

I said 'kind of arrogant' - we can argue how much, I suppose.

Read your comments above, look me in the eye and tell me they are: 'fair, fact-based criticism's'. I didn't pull the comments that I felt were ok. I pulled the ones that I felt were not. Like I said, nobody really said anything about those comments I posted - unless some have been deleted. I read one, possibly two comments pulling you up on what you said above - I would hardly call that 'deluged with comments about how 'closed-minded, ignorant, and hateful I am'. Perhaps that is what you were hoping for. I didn't see that. Did I miss the 'deluge'? were some comments deleted?
The only other person who I found that got some criticism (like you) was 'natural philosophy' - but I did not pull his comments, because he has no right to reply. Yes, Duck did make some comments - you say they had 'sugar on top' - did you ever think they were mature, adult comments - not childish comments such as: 'So get the fuck off, and go do dark ages shit.' or 'nazis the KKK, child molesters: Remarkably, islam shares many of the characteristics of each of these groups.'

We are obviously reading two different threads.

I said: 'It might just be the reason he is no longer with us.'

Well, given the grandstanding you have attempted to do (and failed I think) that would not seem the case.

I do understand what you are trying to say within this thread, I just think you are making a piss poor attempt at doing so.

I hope I am being fair to you and others. I did go back and read the whole thread, as my recollections were a little hazy (hence the crossed wires that might have occurred with Emanresu.) You might have a different sense of what did and did not occur if you read the thread again. If you have, you are obviously free to make your argument - and I would hope pull some quotes to make that case. Rather than rely on what you say here 20 or so pages later.

 

I wish people could say what they really meant standing on their own feet (or head) without recourse to any quotes. I want to know if there were no book, no dress, no pundits then what you would be seeking to find, and if this hunger for the search for (whatever) can be filled with quotes, books, dress codes, prayer, recipes, and methods of washing.

I suggest that along these lines few persons follow the quest for truth to it's lonely conclusion in meditation, but more get waylaid (and way laid) and lose the desire for truth in community and lifestyle.

People are forever debating specious philosophies as if they are somehow different. But the real truths are not those of books and codexs but the common things which make us human (or inhuman).

You will find more truth in sharing food then you will ever find in any God. (or Goddess).

The real truest truths and wisdom of all the ages speak to the present and the act of having a positive intention. All the rest is some person trying to baffle other persons with ever grander bullshit.

All religions are bullshit. I feel sorry for the OP. I didn't say there was no truth, I just said you won't find it in religion. If you could, you already would have because nothing is hidden.

 

It's pretty apparent the OP has split, and I don't entirely blame her. She came on, a bit naive, but positive and excited and trying something new, and she got shot down instead. I figure this Islam thing is a phase (hopefully), either way I support honest, innocent experimentation.
We all can talk as much as we want, but fact is, we DON'T KNOW anything for sure.
Whether Atheist, Agnostic, Christian or Muslim, we're all humans trying to figure life out....

 

Not by everybody, you hasten to add, I'm sure.

 

Hmm? I never said that.... quit putting words in my mouth, it's so rude.
I think she hates me now even though I defended her because I did also point out Islam's flaws.... sigh, even if she wants to love and known Islam, she needs to know and acknowledge it's flaws too.

 

Your point seemed to be she got shot down. Mine was: not by everybody. That is all.

 

The fucking internet is not the place to cast your greatest dreams or fears. Everyone does so at their own risk. If they wish to cast their pearls before soap bubbles and bacons then it's their own foolishness.

The whole process here was not for the OP but for those who gave the slightest shit for second, if that amounted to anyone.

 

Congratulations sister .. Really I'm happy to To hear people
Converted Islam .. Al hamdo Lilah ...


if you want islam's Books just tell me
Congratulations Again ..

 

[FONT=&quot]السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]بركاته[/FONT]
(( Assalamu Alaikom warahmatu Allahi wa barakatuhu))
I think you mean reverted.

Well I'm not supposed to be talking directly to men even if it's just on the Internet. So let me say I'm not sure why this happened to me. But I'm finally very happy. I haven't officially said the Shahadah (will soon) but in my heart I already have.(you should have seen what I did to a group of sisters on the street) I go to the Masijd in my area and I'm living like a proper muslim woman should. Other sisters have been very helpful.

Inshallah I never leave the path Allah(swt) has laid out for me.

If you have links to resources I would be very happy to accept them.

I didn't split but I do have a personal life with a lot going on in it and I also don't own a computer or anything else connected to the Internet. So forgive me, I only go out of my way to access the Internet if I have a good reason.

Now I don't hate you. In fact I don't hate anyone on here but obviously there's a few clowns and I've put them on ignore. (problem solved)

Now I've read the Qur'an and you know what?? Nothing at all appeared to be overly violent towards others or even oppressive towards women. In fact most of it is pretty repetitive and is very much against false idol worship or attaching partners to Allah(swt).

In fact I went through that list of quotations. Some are quoted completely out of context... Some poorly translated and many are just outright fabrication of Islamphobia's imagination.

Muhamed(pbh) was man and he had to deal with issues of time period. (For example one issue was that it was common practice to bury baby girls) And again most islamphobes take things out of context to support their dichotomy of hatred.

So if you want to know more about Islam.. Then watch the movie "The Message staring Anthony Quinn and Michael Ansara."

The films was paid for by a Hollywood production company called Filmco.
Here's the IMDB link : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074896/

Here's a couple of scenes from it. : http://www.metacafe.com/watch/10482961/the_begining/

I'm sure if you look around the Internet you'll find a copy of the entire movie. (That is if you're interested in seeing a non-hate perspective)

Now there are 3 problems that western nations have with Islam.
​

1) Muslims won't allow themselves to be oppressed. Allah's(swt) messenger Mohamed(pbh) made it clear that death and fighting is preferable to oppression. And western nations (particularly english ones) are used to being bullies.

2) 1.5 billion muslims in the world with our own set of laws and rules to doing business and buying. It's a market that's practically impossible for greedy capitalist nations to get their claws into. (for example the meat industry pumps millions into anti-islam lobby groups because we won't touch their haram products)

3) Are rules concerning photos, paintings, etc. It's not just Muhamed(phb) that we're not supposed to make images of... it's everything with a soul. (ie: Animals, people, etc) Because angels can't enter into a home where there's pictures of things with a soul. SO... because of this rule using the media to manipulate muslims is not easy.

As far as wearing the Hijab

I have a past. The nudity, catting around, etc. But I can honestly say before my religious experience that I didn't know any better. I was just acting like everyone else, trying to fit in and looking for love and acceptance.

Yes I was a slapper and shouldn't have done those things. I now regret what I was but however I'm a chaste woman now and I'm going to stay that way. And the hijab is not oppression against women.

If anything the hijab is oppression against men.

Because by wearing it I'm liberated from the exploitation of men.
Again if you want to know more.... Check out these videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTI0HOQceqM"]Who is Oppressed : Muslim women with Hijab or Western Society Women ? - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7dXXA6Ck8E"]Hijab Oppression or Liberation, Burka Ban, Ahmed Deedat, Islam for Dummies الØ*جاب Ø*جاب - YouTube

Here's a poem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=qw2Hmbw9KsU
​

-----

 

Yup, reverted sounds about right, going backwards in all respects it would appear.

Decry the evils of porn and call for a ban because of how it subjugates women, yet you are not allowed to directly talk to a man????


I'm curious,
JUST WHAT THE FUCK IS BROKEN IN YOUR BRAIN???????

naive, so very naive. *sigh*

 

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to

reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;
eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;
protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;
reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims; and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.
We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid structures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine; to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens; and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.