Is America a free country, or an illusion of freedom?

Discussion in 'Random Thoughts' started by stormountainman, Mar 9, 2014.

  1. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    Anyway....

    People throughout this thread just have different opinions of what the word "free" means.
     
  2. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    I didn't quote your post. I asked you a question. You didn't answer, you took it personally. :p
     
  3. machinist

    machinist Banned Lifetime Supporter

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    you didn't quote me but you talked about jobs and cars immediately after me so its not that i was taking it personally its that you were talking at me you big silly goose
     
  4. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Never in my life have I ever heard a hippy preaching hard work. That line of thinking is a Republican party idea. The Republicans want us to keep working hard, without adequate pay, without worker compensation insurance, without minimum wages, without safe working conditions, without health insurance, without adequate safe housing, so they can be rich. I am amazed at the number of people here who claim to be hippies; however, they stand for everything that is anti-hippy. Hippy is anti-establishment, anti-capitalist, anti-institutional religion, anti-corporate food, and anti- government tyranny. Start waking up people!
     
  5. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    I wasn't the one preaching hard work, nor will I ever because I do not believe at all that if someone is willing to work hard they will always get ahead. There are much more obstacles in some peoples way than others... but in any case, I do feel I should point out here that not everyone here claims to be a hippy.
     
  6. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    The wizard got it right.
     
  7. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    Ha. Yea. That was what I originally said....that even though individual people can be free in what they think, feel, etc, etc..... that wizard's first post didn't needed anything else added to it really.
     
  8. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, the Beatnicks joined up with the Black folks to stand for civil rights and equality. The Hippies joined the movement in the 1960s. The White Christian Republicans never wanted any one to have equality, and they opposed the Civil Rights laws. Republicans do not want people to have affirmative action, they don't want equality for women, and they don't want protections for the environment. Republicans want to allow the big multi-national corporations to trash the environment, and enslave the workers. All Hippies that I have met have wanted these protections for women, minorities, and the environment. I seems to me that Republicans on these pages must want to act as provocateurs, to disrupt the Hippy movement.
     
  9. Wizardofodd

    Wizardofodd Senior Member

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    I own a business, house, cars, etc. I would hardly say I'm lazy or lack ambition and I say you are a slave. At the very least, you are a slave to the almighty dollar. You are, I am and so so are most of the rest of us. The people who really have it made are the ones with the power to create money out of thin air. Consider how much time you spend earning money so you can live on this planet. We are the only animals on the planet who have to pay to live here.

    So yes....you're a slave regardless of how happy you are with your life. Oscar Wilde said that the kind slave owners were(/are) the worst slave owners because their actions hide how bad the reality really is from the slaves. But don't worry about that. Watch more tv.
     
  10. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    'Nuff said. :2thumbsup:
     
  11. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    Dude get off your mule, I don't even have cable. And its not because I can't afford it, its because I don't watch tv.

    Secondly, you're free to live in a state of slavery in your mind. I don't have to, because I'm not a slave. You live a simple life, performing manual labor and sales.. I don't. We do completely different things - by choice. You devote your time to causes you want to pursue, as do I. I also don't have the pessimistic, negative mindset you do about my position in life. Go ahead and keep believing you're a slave that seems to suit you. I'll speak for myself thanks :)

    Signed,
    Not A Slave to ignorance.
     
  12. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    First of all, I'm not a hippy.

    And never did I say you should keep working hard without adequate pay lol.

    I'm suggesting people fend for themselves, work hard (and smart, obviously-duh). You are seriously a fool if you think results materialize from thin air and zero effort, wake up!
     
  13. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    The crazy thing is I pretty much know what you (HIL) and WOO mean..
    I mean I know these things are the case that wizard mentions...
    But I also know that doesn't mean people have to have a slave mentality or allow that knowledge to effect the way you live (I mean, yes, I know the money system changes the way everyone lives...)- but as I said in an earlier post, individuals don't have to be enslaved. Actually in reality no body controls anything that I do at all. I stay home with my kid (soon to be kids), teach him (them soon) what I want to teach them...think what I wanna think...go where I wanna go, etc., etc.--- I don't like to give anyone enough power over my brain to actually feel enslaved to them. They can't enslave someone's spirit/soul as I said earlier.
    Doesn't mean the things Wiz said don't have validity... I think it can be just how much control you give that over yourself.
     
  14. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    Yeah I agree. And to add, I personally believe we each possess the power to change things if we are 1) smart enough - not meant in a derogatory way at all, and 2) willing. I don't buy into the whole "The government controls me, I have no freedom, I just do what they say etc" bit, because if I really felt that way… I would go back to school and get my Masters in Public Administration and go lobby to see the changes I want to exist. People do it allllllll the time. So if someone like WOO feels so downtrodden and passionate about his position, he should go do something about it :) As for me, I don't feel enslaved therefore I won't pursue a MPA anytime soon.
     
  15. fraggle_rock

    fraggle_rock Member

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    I don't think people should have to fend for themselves-- the best efforts are team efforts, and if more people worked together instead of for themselves then society as a whole would be much better.

    I don't think we're slaves but it's pretty naive to think that anyone can have anything they want if they just work hard (or even 'smart', as if it's easy to know exactly what you need to do to get rich).
     
  16. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    Maybe thats why you're not rich?

    I don't believe in the impossible. Period.




    .
     
  17. AmericanTerrorist

    AmericanTerrorist Bliss

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    Impossible? No. But things are harder for some people. For example- say you don't have family to help you out and you start going to college when you're younger on student loans....stop going just short of degree and cannot afford to pay off student loans and therefore they eventually go into default. Then you'd like to go back and finish your degree but can't get any more loans.. but at this point you have kids that need supporting and you can't afford the extra money out of pocket to go back to school (or to pay off student loans)... Yes, you could say this person should have been smarter before and finished degree, whatever... but people aren't always smart when they are 18, 19, 20 years old.
    Anyways, I am talking about myself and my situation here. But I don't feel bad for myself. I believe there are still ways for me to do this.. for one I can focus on other things, like currently I have started teaching music (flute) lessons again because I like it, am my own boss and can stay home w my kids... I also believe that in a few years when my youngest is in kindergarten (okay in 5 years lol), I can save up the money to do one or two classes at a time to finish some sort of degree.
    In any case, my brother- who grew up living in the same house as me... my mom just decided to both let him live with her while he went to school, pay his rent, etc... AND to pay for his school. Now my brother has a degree in music productions and has a production studio, a nice house, no student loans, etc.
    A little easier for him.
    But in any case, impossible? No. But for some people, especially once you have kids, it's a bit harder to just put your money into going to school to be able to get a job that pays enough. That said, I've always been the sort of person who figures things out... the flute lessons pay enough that combined w my husband's salary we have enough for two kids and to take vacations, have a decent (hybrid) suv paid off, etc.-- not a lot extra but that's fine...Before that I had a home daycare and enjoyed that work so I'll always find things I like to do that I can do and don't need anyone else to give me a job... but it would be easier if I could get student loans. lol.
     
  18. fraggle_rock

    fraggle_rock Member

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    Oh yeah, get personal whenever someone challenges you... that's pretty classy.

    It's not impossible, just highly unlikely for a lot of people... not because they're stupid or lazy, but because in a lot of cases your success depends on someone else's failure. Or it's a matter of luck, but probably also about being able to get money/having it in the first place.

    No, I'm not rich... I'm also not poor. To be honest, I can't imagine what I would even do with more money than I already have... I don't even know how to spend as much as I earn. It all just goes into the savings account/markets... that's all I need and I don't really care if I get more, because I'm not greedy and I still get to do everything I want to do.

    But something tells me that you're being so forceful with your opinion here because you want to believe it, not because you know for sure that it's true.
     
  19. Meliai

    Meliai Members

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    No offense but you've said many things on hf that give every indication you come from a solid middle or even upper middle class background so I think it may be difficult for you to understand economic bondage. By that I mean, kids who come from poverty have an extremely hard time getting ahead in life. We've all heard the success stories used as propaganda to support this bullshit idea we call the American Dream but kids who come from poverty and end up in Harvard or wherever are the exception, not the rule. If a kid from a bad background works their ass off, scholarships are still limited. In most cases these kids aren't going to find the motivation at all because they go to shitty schools, have no encouragement at home, have to act as parent to their siblings or own parents, fall into a bad crowd because no one gives a shit, etc. Kids from poor backgrounds are much more likely to have a baby at an early age, in which case getting ahead becomes extremely difficult like AT mentioned.

    For the record I don't think americans are really enslaved but I also don't believe in the American dream. I don't think everyone has an equal chance to succeed. Some people are severely limited from the day they are born.
     
  20. happilyinlove

    happilyinlove with myself :p

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    AT - I see what you're saying. I personally sacrificed having children so that I could establish my career (which I paid for). Is that a burden to me? Yes. Not the same burden you carry, but relative to me its was a handicap.

    AT, this definitely isn't a competition and I hope I don't come off that way by sharing my experience with you. I started working at 15, dropped out of high school at 16. I struggled and mourned the loss of two friends for years at that age. Finally earned my GED, and then dropped out of college at 19 to enter the work force. It took me three more years of wallowing to realize I needed to go back to school….graduated after 6 years of working full time and paying for school whenever I had extra money. Meanwhile, I lived on 25 cent burritos, ramen and tuna. There was a time I relied on the bagels my boss brought to work every Friday. Some days, my coworker and I actually halved and quartered the bagels just so that we had something in our tummies. Luckily, I had a nice boyfriend that would treat me to dinner and nice things every now and then. I did bounce around though, from place to place, had terrible credit because I defaulted on everything. I simply didn't earn enough to pay for everything I needed to. Anyway, my mentality is that if you work hard and keep working and progressing - things do improve. I now make far more than my fiancé, and we don't even need his income to live in NYC. Everything is in my name, my credit improved, and I found legitimate ways to clear the blemishes. There was no road map, or how to, this is all on my on reconnaissance. By the way, my mother is a dentist and she paid for ONE semester of schooling- thats it. She shares this mentality, in fact she instilled it in me with tough love and I thank her for it. Because you won't ever see me asking for a handout or permission to do things. Not that there is anything wrong with helping others or being in need, I'm internally motivated and I just refuse to ever be in that position.
     

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