Is God 1 or 3? [Or] Is Jesus God or part of God? [Let the Gospel answer]

Jatom
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Hello Jatom =), how are you doing? I hope you are fine and happy
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Matthew 10.26: … there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
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Here is some of what I read regarding Paul
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Actually, the Trinity isn't biblical; the word Trinity is not even in the Bible and was never taught by Jesus and was never mentioned by him
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom
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Here are some of my comments and notes on the above quotes, note: concentrate on the red words that I will color them in the quotes and on the red words which are in the verses which I will write themè (the verses) as a comments on the quotes.
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Note (1)
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Heathen, now read this:
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Jeremiah 10:1-8: Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might. Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities.
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Did Jesus peace be upon him recommended to do such thing? When did Christians start to do this for the first time if Jesus didn't recommend it and why and what does it mean or what is the point?NIV: Matthew 15.9: … their teachings are but rules taught by men. It is like God knew that they will do this in the future so he stated it, to warn them or to draw their attentions to this matter, yeah, verily, he is the All-Knower.
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Note (2)
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Regarding the Christmas tree: I will quote for you what TrippinBTM wrote concerning it in my thread ;
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'' It's an ancient tradition for the winter festival to cut down and decorate a tree, often an evergreen because it's still green, as a symbol for the power of life in the face of death (shortest day and coldness of winter)''
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'' but I'm pretty sure the current manifestation of this tradition is from the Germans, who later brought the tradition to America. The Germans, having never been conquered by the Romans, held onto their pagan ways longer, and even after they converted still continued many of their traditions.''
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If you want to read his entire response please click here he posted a link too if you want a further information.
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Note (3)
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Plus
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I can find here, how was Paul and the 4 Gospels immersed in such belief regarding the concept of God , read
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1 Peter 1.19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot
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Revelation 5.6:
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… in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, … And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb…
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Note (4)
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Now read, Revelation 12.1:
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And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered… And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Etc etc etc
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom
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Do you still believe in Paul?
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You should choose, Paul or Jesus? Return to Jesus' true Lord, the Lord of Israel, the one,
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*** (Isaiah 43: 10-12) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
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Return before it is too late
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***Romans 2.8:But unto them that are contentious, and donot obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath,
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***John 4.21-34Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not whatè [Mithra,=( ] we know what we worship: … and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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***Acts 17:18 … He è (Paul) seems to be advocating foreign gods.
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Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by menè (Paul)
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***Matthew: 15: 3:
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But he answered and said unto them, why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? …. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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Quraan, Allah stated: Say: O People of the Scripture. Come to an agreement between usè (Muslims) and you: that we shall worship none but Allah è (the father), and that we shall ascribe no partners unto Him… And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).
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Quraan: Is there any God beside Allah? Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful! I did my precious Lord.
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Quraan: Say: O People of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of
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a people who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path. When I read this verse I remember Paul =(
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Dear Jatom Jesus was a messenger and a prophet of God the father, he wasn't God at all. However, that's up to you =( Quraan: As for those who strive hard in me (my cause) I will surely guide them to my path, and verily, Allah with the good doers.
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You wrote this as a comment on:
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Well, if people have uttered lies against Jesus by ascribing him with things and sayings and deeds to him that he didn't do it or say it etc then it goes without saying that the Gospel has been corrupted, right! Here one example, which I already wrote it down.
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John8.56-57: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
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!!!!! Jesus was saying that Abram saw his day not he (Jesus) saw Abraham? Why did the Jews ask then in 57: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? We find huge faults in these two verses? Jesus said that Abraham saw his day but the Jews said how you saw Abraham! Jesus didn't clarify by saying: no I didn't say that I saw Abraham I said he saw my day! But instead of saying so he Jesus directly answered them!! This is probably an addition to write the verse 58 to reconcile it with Exodus? Read and concentrate John8.56-57: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad, and if these two verses are additions by the hand of men then it goes without saying that the verses 58 and 59 and are additions too!!!!!!!!!! If I am wrong then clarify for me, and thank you before hand.
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No, I don't have a specific argument from those sources, I just wanted you to read them, it is up to you.
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!!! Ok, what is your definition of corruption, i.e. how do you consider if a holy book is corrupted or isn't?
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=) thank you, by the way sometimes I couldn't understand some of the biblical verses, I wish you don't mind to clarify them to me, but not now and not here.
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Hurrah! I am done =)
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Jatom

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA
I wish you read it, or were you waiting me till I finish it? =)

thespeez- lovelightlisa
I will write a response for you soon,perhaps tomorrow, OK dear =)

Kiss the sky

no, dear, I was responding on Jatom's post in instalments because of my limited time and I have done, I will respond on your post soon, perhaps tomorrow, please excuse me dear sister =)

YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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Thank you, I really appreciate that

 

Dear beloved brother the speez
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Hello thespeez =), how are you doing? I hope you are fine and happy, I am really so sorry to be so late to write a response
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Thanks =) I am comfortable now.
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Don't mention it, you deserve it =)
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I see, and thank you for answering my questions, I really appreciate it. Do you just believe in the 4 Gospels, there are other Gospels like Thomas, Barnabas, etc
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=) this is very true
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I see.
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My deepest sincere best wishes
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Kiss the sky
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Try to read the whole discussion
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Dear, I need proofs from the bible which support this belief (trinity), the Trinity isn't biblical because I didn't find it in the bible at all; the word Trinity is not even in the Bible and was never taught by Jesus and was never mentioned by him!!
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Isaiah 45.17-22 [TEV= Today's English Version (TEV) or Good News Bible]:
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'' …It is he who says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other god. I have not spoken in secret or kept my purpose hidden... I am the LORD, and I speak the truth; I make known what is right."
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God is three but 1, 3 persons in oneè as it was written in the question, accordingly, does he mean that the God couldn't be separated from each other?
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Do you know the number of the verse and the chapter of this verse, and of course the name of the Gospel as wellè Christ said, "The Father is in the Son,"
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Sadly, no, this was his view which wasn't supported with any proof at all, and I mean by proof (verses which support his view, verses from Torah or the 4 Gospels!)
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1 Thessalonians 5.21: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
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I perceive this one God to include: God the father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. You are saying that God is one, while you refer to three Gods!
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1 Corinthians 14.33: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace
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However, if the concept of God is truly like this (3 persons in one- father, son and the Holy Spirit) and if I will worship this God that means I am worshipping those three Gods which they are one, then,
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John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè (see he said father not the son or the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father!). Ye worship ye know not what:è (he meant Mithra probably you are worshipping Mithra, for more information about Mithra click here and read posts #121 & 122 ) we know what we worship … and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father … for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by menè (Paul)
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Matthew: 15: 3: But he answered and said unto them, why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ….But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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Acts 17:18… He è (Paul) seems to be advocating foreign gods.
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John 8.32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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You are more than welcome =) dear sister, and please try to read the whole discussion or read as much as you can.
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Best wishes,
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Dear Love light lisa
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Hi Lisa, it is really nice to see you here =)
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Thank you very much for these nice words, I do appreciate it strongly and deeply =)
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You are more than welcome =)
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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kiss_the_ sky

Where in the Bible can one find something that substains such an analogy?
And if its possible that God can be in these 3 different "reflections" then why wasnt this mentioned by Christ (peace be upon him) himself without the need of some half pagan/half christian romans 300 years after his ascendence helping him?

 

Once again, I understand. Thanks again for getting back!
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And again, I appreciate that!

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One of the atrocities that happened at the council of Nicea-as you may very well know-is that there were activities going on which were motivated not by implementing spiritual integrity, but by promoting a political agenda. Such activities included manipulating the text of scripture to fit a specific agenda and excluding certain books from the Bible which didn't fulfill the agenda being promoted by the "powers that be." I will confess that I am not aware of the content of the Gospels of Thomas and Barnabas. The only thing that I have been told is that the Gospel of Thomas denies the virgin birth, which BTW, even more so than the trinity, is a belief that I seriously question. ​

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And thanks again!

 

thespeez
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Thank you very much, I really appreciate it deeply =),
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You are more than welcome =)
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=)
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Regarding the Gospel of Barnabas, try to read it, here is a link were you can read it, and download it for free. Click here
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Branapas, Chapter 94:
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And having said this, Jesus said again: `I confess before heaven, and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth, that I am a stranger to all that men have said of me, to wit, that I am more than man. For I am a man, born of a woman, subject to the judgement of God; that live here like as other men, subject to the common miseries.
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You are very welcome =)
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Thanks for providing the link! When I get the chance, I'll read it more thoroughly. I did get the chance to read a few chapters. Despite the claims made therein of Jesus being born of a virgin, I'm still a skeptic.

 

thespeez
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Welcome =)
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So what do you think? Or what do you consider it more probable? And why?
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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catstevens, are you done Yet? Can I start on my reply?

 

yup, I am done, and I wrote that.

YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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As I understand it, the word that was used to translate the word from hebrew to english was 'Almah, which (I believe) means maiden. The word which means virgin in hebrew is betulah. Granted, this is mentioned in John Shelby Spong's Book "Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism" and while I do feel that some of Spong's ideas do have merit, I take alot of what he says with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, as I understand it, the virgin birth story was derived from pagan legends and I feel that this and other teachings incorporated into 4th century christianity were derived from similar if not the same sources.

FWIW, here are some websites regarding Spong's ideas and beliefs:
http://www.geocities.com/reuther_2000/spong.html
http://secure.agoramedia.com/spong/index_spong2.asp?sc=1&promo=8E8054FA-64A6-4100-9B08-37F4592A6F13&email=
http://www.beliefnet.com/author/author_44.html

 

thespeez ​

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Almah ​

In Arabic Abd means slave male (Abd Allah (Abdullah) = slave of Allah) the word Amah (without L) means slave female in Arabic.​

Muslims are called the slaves of Allah, the slave obeys his sir, accordingly we Muslims should obey our Lord Allah exactly as the slave, Muslims is the adjective of the noun Islam: is an Arabic term which means: ''submission'', points to the fundamental religious creed which dictates that a Muslim submits to the will of Allah, conforming inwardly and outwardly to his lows. i.e.: the right way of life consisting of submission to whatever God has instructed.​

And as a Muslims when we were sure that the Quraan is Allah's word And Allah is the true Lord, then we shouldn't argue him nor any of his commands we just obey him, exactly like the slave when you ask him to do something he will do it immediately without arguing, so a Muslim should be like this, a slave of God.​

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Betulah​

Batul is the title of Mary and Fatimah è [Prophet Muhammad's daughter] peace be upon them all​

Batul means in Arabic: 1. the virgin woman who doesn't have a husband + 2. The one who dedicate or devote herself or life and deeds to the God etc ​

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I see, but whenever we find similar things it doesn't mean that it is derived from the former thing as for its apparition time and that the later thing isn't true, however, the main and important point is, we should check, I wish you will be succeeded in your researches and you will find the truth, Amen.

BTW: Have you read Mary's story according to the Islamic version? ​

YoursSincerely,​

CatStevens​

 

Perhaps I may be taking things totally out of context. Nevertheless, I find it interesting that you use the analogy of slavery to defend your points. Slavery is a means of owning, oppressing and thereby excercising complete control over that individual for your own personal gain. Moreover, many manipulators have and still use such remarks to promote their own agenda, thereby setting a dangerous precedent!
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Once again, I may be taking something out of context, but anytime I hear something like this, I am reminded of the following statement which I've seen as a bumper sticker and is believed by many fundamentalist Christians: "God said it, I believe it and that settles it!"
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You must understand completely what the author was trying to convey when quoting chapter and verse. You have to understand the culture customs, lifestyle(s), language and other factors which prevailed at the time. Otherwise, your messsage has questionable credibility.

Interesting.
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I understand your point. Nevertheless I feel that there were efforts at the council of Nicea to sabotage the teachings of Jesus and to promote a faith not necessarily based upon spiritual integrity, but to promote a political agenda. If something is in fact true, then OK. If, however, there are manipulators trying to promote their own agenda over trying to promote spiritual integrity but nevertheless claim to act on behalf of the divine, they or their claims need to be questioned and if proven false, denied!

Can't say that I have. Do you know where I can find out more about this? FTR, I did read in the Muslim rebuttal to Barnabas' gospel link that you provide earlier that the virgin birth never occurred. ​

 

The speez
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I am not defending anything, I know that slave means as you mentioned, but I was talking about the slave in the Islamic or religious view and concept, Allah called us (Muslims) slaves, My dear Allah called prophet Muhammad and All other prophets slaves as well (Allah's slaves – my slave) and everyone who obeys Allah is called Allah's slave, Merry was a pious person, so she was his slave as well, here is a story which just has crossed my mind, there was a sinner man who has a housemaid, once his housemaid was taking the rubbish I believe out the house, a pious Muslim man asked his housemaid, is your boss a slave or free! She said: of course he isn't a slave! He is a free, Then he replied, yes you're right, if he was a slave he won't disobey his Boss or he will obey his bossè (he meant Allah) (so he is free) the housemaid didn't understand him, but she told her Boss and he understood that and then he became one of the pious Muslims at the time. We Muslims have to be his slaves in this world, doing whatever he wants, and after this temporary job and life, we will have an eternal holiday (vacation) and our real complete full salary (rewards), and we will do whatever we want there. Myself I want to be his slave forever =), it is my deepest pleasure, because I know all what he commands its results are for my advantage at last, and I love him in the first place.
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My dear Allah called the prophet Muhammad and All other prophets slaves (Allah's slaves – my slave) while the bible translated to servant, I think if I want to be exact then there is a different between a servant and a slave regarding some matters, Allah own us, we are his creatures and this is real, yet not every body is his slave, I mean not everybody is doing what he wants, so we are slaves and not at the same time, slave when we belongs to God, God's creature so God own us, but not slave in respect of the obedience issue concerning some people. If somebody is Allah's slave then he should obey him. However, the bible in the Arabic version translates servant to slave! If I made something then it is mine, I own it, it is my own, and Allah (God) has created us so he own us.
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Slave = ÚÈÜÏ …….. Servant = ÎÜÇÏã
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I believe that the God of the Torah and Gospel is the same God of the Quraan, and I am sure that Allah called them slaves as well but they translated to servants.
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Muslims is the adjective of the noun Islam: is an Arabic term which means: ''submission'', points to the fundamental religious creed which dictates that a Muslim submits to the will of Allah, conforming inwardly and outwardly to his lows. i.e.: the right way of life consisting of submission to whatever God has instructed= slaves in the concept, the slave does whatever his lord or boss commands him, he doesn't argue, he doesn't murmur, he doesn't say: why should I pray five times a day! Why shouldn't I steal!
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Numbers 14.26: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me. I am so sorry for this my beloved Lord =(
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Deuteronomy 6.17: Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD Yes Sir! As you will.
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If I do what the prophet has commanded then I am doing what the God has commanded actually, because the prophet orders or conveys God's orders.
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John 14.24: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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John 12.49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
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John 12.44: Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
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Luke6.46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
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Accordingly if you obey the prophet you're obeying the God actually, So if God is truly our Lord, Sir, etc then we should obey him exactly as the slave who does whatever the God has commanded. I am sure that the Lord Allah when he called his prophets and pious followers at the time of Moses and Jesus and former prophets in OT and NT ''slaves'' it is the same concept of the Islamic concept because he is the same lord, this is my belief and you don't have to accept it is up to you. I wasn't talking about the slave the known slave, I was talking about the prophets and God's followers and Mary PBUH is one of them.
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Yup, for example in the Quraan, actually there is a chapter of the Quraan is entitled " Maryam=Mary" each chapter in the Quraan is entitled with a name.
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Brief of briefs:
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The Quraan confirms the biblical story of Jesus' virgin birth. Mary was unmarried whose life was dedicated to the worship of God by her mother, while she was worshipping in a secluded place, she was informed her impending pregnancy, Quraan:
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'' ...O Mary, indeed Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word [Be! And he was! - i.e. Jesus] from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary… …she said: O my Lord!, how shall I have a son when no man has touched me? he said: ''so (it will be) for Allah creates what he wills, when he has decreed something, he says to it only: ''?Be" and it is.
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After she has begotten him,
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Quraan:
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Then she brought him (the baby Jesus) to her people, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Indeed Thou hast brought a mighty thing.… Thy father was not a bad man nor was thy mother an unchaste woman. Then she pointed to him. They said how can we take to one who is a child in the cradle? He (Jesus) said: verily! I am a slave of Allah. He hath given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet… Such is Jesus, son of Mary: (it is) a statement of the truth concerning which they dispute.
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Muhammad Husnee Yusuf said: Jesus' life is wonderful in his birth and wonderful in his childhood and wonderful in his youth, in his life and in his calling (i.e. conveying the message of God) and his end… everything in it was wonderful, all his life was miracles and signs of the power of Allah. Without a father he was born and he talked when he was in the cradle, he healed the patients, he raised the dead people, he fashion out of clay the likeness of a bird, and he breathed into it and it becomes a bird and fly, by Allah's leave. He announced unto people about the secrets of what they store up in their houses of food, drinks and money. He prayed to God with prayers and God hear (answer) him immediately, he sowed the good (righteousness), peace and love between the people and everywhere.
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We Muslims don't believe in any current Gospel as the word of God, yes we believe that Allah has revealed it to Jesus but it isn't the current gospels they aren't the original Gospel, read post #
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I asked you in post 130: Do you just believe in the 4 Gospels, there are other Gospels like Thomas, Barnabas, etc
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The speez:
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I will confess that I am not aware of the content of the Gospels of Thomas and Barnabas. The only thing that I have been told is that the Gospel of Thomas denies the virgin birth
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Catstevens: Regarding the Gospel of Barnabas, try to read it, here is a link were you can read it, and download freely.Click here
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I think the link doesn't belong to an Islamic website, plus I gave it to you to read it if you want because you said: I am not aware of the content of the Gospels of Thomas and Barnabas , so, I gave you a link where you can know more about its content, that's it.
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YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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You can call me too politically correct for my own good, but I can accept the term 'servant' a little bit better.
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Obviously in the case of the latter, you are betraying the trust of your fellow man if you commit such an act.

FTR, in the ten commandments, did you know that when they were talking about stealing they were not necessarily talking about theft of belongings but about kidnapping? At least this is how I understand it. Theft (of belongings) was covered under the last commandment stating that "You shall not covet...anything that belongs to your neighbor."

On the issues of praying and fasting, I believe these to be matters of conscience. Moreover, I feel that the former is a private matter between one and the divine. ​

At the council of Nicea, there were efforts to alter scripture and disallow relevant works from being included. With the political agenda being promoted at the time, it wouldn't surprise me to know that much was omitted and manipulated. If so, I would love to know why such books were omitted. In addition to the gospels which you've mentioned, I wonder if others exist as well. In any regard, I take everything with a grain of salt. I believe that scripture needs to be translated critically and understood from the point of view that existed at the time it was written. The gospels are no exception. I hope that I have answered your question better. ​

If this is the case, kindly explain why the Sabr Foundation, which appears to be a Muslim educational outreach service, sponsors this link. This is confirmed at the bottom of the link that you've provided.

And again, I thank you for this. Unfortuantely, I haven't had the chance to read all of it as of yet.
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