Is Hoffman The Modern Day Christ?

3xi, this sort of brings us to the idea of expectations. You're concept of love is going to vary greatly from... just about anyone else in the world. While there may be certain similarities, as you say some people just aren't capable of what you consider to be love. However, in their own way and in their own mind they do love you. And that perceived reality IS reality, especially for them.

It doesn't make that love any less valuable, than say, a love you might feel is more easily received. In fact, just like you said loving and accepting them as they are is what allows your own capacity for love to grow!

Back to the original point. Often times a words meaning and significance goes beyond the dictionary, and I think you realize this. We're not talking about a word like lupine with a clear definition. Rather, like love, a word like enlightenment has several definitions for each person, which is what led me to my previous comment of there really being no definition at all. Enlightenment, just like love... IS. Qualification, justification, and all means of measure are fruitless.

 

i take it your trips were not so fulfilling?(if you had any) obviously you lacked the understanding needed to really get something from this wonderful drug. LSD is subjective - in other words you get out of it what you put in. if you get the LSD without also getting the magic you miss out on many of the spiritual aspects. you have to first be open to experience something spiritual on LSD before you will experience such things. you can call us crazy if you want just like so many people before you. we know it is only because you are closed minded.

just because you have never experienced something does not mean that it can't happen for other people.

ever heard of the beatles?

no one said that all you have to do is take acid to know how the universe works. obviously there is your mind and reality at play here. like i said LSD is subjective.

 

Right, but the reason LSD is subjective is because it's not the LSD that's causing the awareness it's something present in the person. I'm a firm believer in the idea that drugs don't create anything in anyone, but just bring about what the person had/was prone to already. The same revelations received via any drug could be received without it as well, though probably not without considerably more effort.

Course there is also the problem with drugs making people think they are being ridiculously profound, when they're just being ridiculous, heh.

At the source, LSD is nothing but a chemical, any effects, preceived or actual are entirely the result of its host.

 

well said! before lsd i had a lot of "concepts" but on lsd the things i believed existed even without direct experience i suddenly got to experience. like communicating with trees. i 'knew' it was possible--that they could exchange energy & have healing qualities. i "knew" it--but had never experienced it...until lsd--then that changed. all the things i already knew conceptually suddenly became my new reality...my new physical experience. i love lsd.

 

Yes I've tried it-- and yes, I did feel spiritual. But how much of that was me and how much was the drug??? As long as I'm not feeling that without the drug, I'll never know. And neither will you. You will NEVER know what part of it is actually you and what part of it is because you're on acid.

How about those people who can't get acid? Or what about the people who don't want to try it? By playing out your experiences as spiritual instead of the drug-induced delusions they are, you get to look down on other people and think of them as ignorant or closed-minded, and yourself as their superior. And why? Because you're on drugs. Because you've stopped caring about yourself.

Yes. They all stopped taking acid sometime before the White Album, because they knew it wasn't going anywhere. Also, it is the reason why Paul McCartney ended up doing most of the work on Sgt. Pepper's even to the point where he arranged 'Lucy in the Sky' all by himself, because at that point John Lennon had quit being interested in music, and preferred to stay at home all day doing nothing and tripping on acid. Paul was the one who didn't get into acid so much, and so he was the only one left still capable of doing anything creative. Most of the songs on that album are his-- and the fact that they were pretty much broken up at that point brought things to a head, so they all realized that if they were going to keep going they would have to give up acid and clear their heads. Of course, that's simply when John switched to heroin, Paul switched to coke, George switched to meditation and Ringo did whatever.

The title of this thread is 'Is Hoffman the Modern day Christ?'. I'm not saying that comparing a drug to a religion is all that far-off, but I do object to the reverence it implies, as if LSD is the answer to all of our problems.

But in that Marxist way that religion is the opium of the masses, yes, I would say that Albert Hoffman is close to Christ--- though thankfully, the 'masses' in this case are small.

 

There are users and abusers of LSD. All the things you wrote there, are comming from a perspective of abusing acid. I agree with you on that, but also I can say that if you use it wisely, it can be the best tool to help yourself become the best person you can, to realize where you are stuck in normal life. By my description of being close to God is to realize what is good and what is wrong from your point of view and to try to do as much good things as you can.

 

Why do you need tools? Why can't you do it yourself? Why degrade yourself with drugs?

It sounds to me like when you're saying the guy who invented LSD is like Christ, then you're saying that acid is like love, or like God or something. No, actually, it's a drug that people take because they want to feel good about themselves. Behind all the pretense about its spiritual qualities and the whole 'you're being negative' thing is someone who has no idea where they are going or why, and who does not want to be told that it probably does not make a difference, barring that it makes it easier to be alive because you get to live with delusions and hallucinations instead of the real world.

I honestly can't believe that someone here actually said 'your post screams 'tell me what nirvana is in a way I can understand'-- how embarrassing is that??? I know what nirvana is-- it's bliss, and everyone wants bliss. But more than that, it's removal from this world. It's choosing delusion over reality. It's living without concern for anyone but yourself. And it's the easy way out. Instead of taking responsibility and existing in the world and trying to make it better, you admit defeat, remove yourself from it, and burn out your brain on acid. You dismiss the world as a futile cause and choose something easy. You sit at your computer, stare at your belly button, talk psuedo-philosophically, and enjoy your own degradation. In fact, you've actually gotten to the point that you're excited about it. LSD helps you to embrace it.

 

Hallucinations? Hmmm.......I dont know about that Jim. Some of it, sure, is playful imagination or metaphorical representations of subconcious issues dancing on your walls and your eyelids. But I tend to know that the energy I've seen surrounding every material object that's crossed my vision during psychedelics trips is all too real. There is a fine line between illusion and reality, and sure, not everyone can make that distinction, or even get anymore out of LSD than delusion. But that's not exactly the case for all of us, and your post sums up millions of people who have dropped as if we are all the same. You can dismiss it all you want, but there is a certain glint and a power behind the eyes of people who know, and those who dont know are always looking outwardly for answers. Like, say, to the Bible, without ever heeding the words that the "Kindgom of Heaven is within you."

 

well said relayer! exactly!

 

No dumbass! How are you supposed to KNOW the kingdom of heaven is within you if you don't first read it, duh! Crazy acid heads.

</sarcasm>

 

sounds like heywood floyd had a bad trip. actually i think he is still having it.

i bet you it really upsets people like that to know that people like us are free to walk the streets at night. can you imagine all the horrible things i must be capable of after doing so much LSD. can you imagine - if i have been doing LSD for over 10 years the whole time believing that what i was experiencing was real when infact it was all a delusion, that means that i must have no concept of what reality is at all. at this point i would have to be crazy.

i am sure that he is only speaking from his own personal experience. wait one minute... cuz i was being sarcastic but if that is how he looks at us because of his own personal experience than what he thinks happened to us actually happened to him. what he is saying is that he did a drug that made him unable to tell the difference between reality and illusion. naturally he assumes that we must have fucked ourselves up like he did. unfortunately he didn’t take into account the fact that LSD is subjective and that his experience with the drug is not necessarily any where near what someone else experiences.

i have gone through many positive changes over the last 10 years. i have learned many things and opened many doors. i would not be who i am without LSD. i know that my experience has been for the best - i know that i would not have come so far had it not been for LSD. our perspectives on life and love are difficult for a lot of people to understand and accept which is a perfect way for people like heywood floyd to find the proof they were looking for. of course people think we are crazy - LSD has opened us up in a way most can only dream of - of course, most genus is mistaken for madness by a simpleton.

my point is that sure you can find many reasons to suggest that we are crazy fucked up from LSD but the truth of the matter is that no one here wants to read it. if people want to read about how bad LSD is they would go to a site geared towards that mentality - they would not come to hip forums. in other words - stop spitting in our faces - no one likes that very much around here.

 

No, your perspectives are not difficult to understand. You are not unthinkably complex and magical and you are not smarter than I am. LSD is subjective, but delusions can be subjective too. This is because delusions are, like dreams, often very much a person's own. You think you can separate the truth from the noise, and you think you know which is which, but maybe you do and maybe you don't. I would trust a sober mind before I trusted a head full of acid-- and no, they're not the same thing.

Delusions are also funny in that you can connect them to things that already exist, ie: the concepts present in eastern mysticism. Also, you can be wrong without being crazy. But interestingly enough, LSD does recreate a lot of the sensations that schizophrenics feel-- and they are quite often called crazy.

Also, I did not have a bad trip which caused me difficulty in separating illusion from reality. I am not a Christian fundamentalist that thinks all drugs are bad because the Bible says so. I don't necessarily even believe in Jesus or the Christian God. You're never going to admit to yourself that LSD is only a drug like all other drugs and you are doing it because it makes you feel spiritual without needing to do anything, without ever actually EARNING the feeling because it's all subjective and there are no rules. And you don't have to admit anything because there's always subjectivity and that can win any argument-- whether it's about music or history or film or acid or pot or politics or whatever-- just use the word 'subjective' and the whole thing shuts down completely. So there's really no point in ever talking about anything ever.

But you're right. I have no idea what you are getting out of it, I only know what I got out of it. I'm not even saying what I got out of it was bad, but I know that it's not the right way for me (subjectivity). I also got to watch my friend go schizo because of it and now he's hardly even there at all. He used to be a good guy, and now a light breeze could totally blow him away, and he thinks that he's going to hell and gets worried because sometimes he gets the idea that thoughts might be stronger than actions, and when he thinks you're the devil he looks at you funny.

Now HOW could acid actually be a good thing and drive people crazy at the same time?? And why did so many people at my high school end up with serious mental problems because of it?

I refuse to believe that a drug can be spiritual, because it's just a drug. Experience gives you perspective. Drugs give you brain damage. This is not a conservative argument, I'm usually pretty left wing and my politics have nothing to do with it anyway. I seriously believe that LSD is bad for you, whether you realize it or not... and I guess the idea of your not realizing it, of your refusing to realize it, is kind of irritating for me. But then again, I've never been all that diplomatic, especially when it comes to drug-users, so maybe next time I'll try to use a little more tact. You might actually listen in that case.

 

hmm....now why did all those people from your high school go crazy? maybe you live in an area where people just aren't as mentally strong as everyone else. your post definatly support that argument. listen i dont care what you say LSD is going to be subjective forever. it's just like, if you are scared of it and think bad things are going to happen and u take it, you will have a bad trip. Your mind is a very powerful thing.


Also, i really don't know why you are so attached to this "real world" of yours? what is so real about it? why is it so important that we live our lifes like everyone else? sorry if some people want more out of life than taxes.....

 

I'll tell you how, it's rather simple actually.
Give me one example, anything on earth, that is a good thing, with absolutley nothing bad for you involved with it? If you can, then I will say I agree with you. If you can't, then I will tell you that life itself is both good and bad. The reason people feel like they 'die' on LSD is because a 'trip' is more or less living your life out in a few hours. Your death is inevitable, so is your happiness, your sadness, your pain, your problems, etc. Not everyone get's this much realization out of psychedelic drug's, but for those of us who do, that fact can not be denied. You may not agree with it, but that doesnt mean people aren't touching good things with LSD use.
Some people have underlying, subconscious issues with themselves, and LSD does the job of bringing them to light. If one is not mentally secure, or in control of their mind's, then LSD may cause a problem.
So does breathing air to stay alive in Mexico City. -

 

Bananas are pretty good for you! Also kiwis.

 

What about people who are alergic to bananas?
Same deal as people who wig on L

 

bananas can give you constipation....

 

Absolutely nothing? No... nothing is absolutely good. There are things where the pros outweigh the cons though. And in my experience drugs and alcohol are always tricksters, and you're never quite getting what you think you're getting out of it.

But the whole 'good/bad' thing is getting off of my original argument, and the point that I took offense to, which is that somehow LSD puts you in touch with a higher power. I understand that in certain situations it can promote a kind of introspection that can be helpful-- but what I don't agree with is the idea that you can actually buy a piece of God for 5 dollars.

 

god is not a whore. no one is trying to buy god...or a piece of god.
no one is trying to buy anything here on hip forums.

what many of us here are doing is connecting to our inner connection to the divine...learning spiritually, or developing personally. attuning to our inner guru. i don't recall anyone here ever saying that lsd is the ONLY way they practice their own attunement. its a tool among other things like moral clean living, meditating, discussing the divine among peers etc etc. lsd is one aspect of that. much like every religion has several ways of aiding communion with the divine be it through chanting, prayer, sufi whirling, prayer beads, sweat lodges you name it! lsd is but one method and one used in combination with a myriad of other things.

if someone told you that sitting in a meadow made them feel closer to god would you think it a bad thing? if someone said that playing guitar made them feel closer to god, or painting, or praying. the fact is when i'm on lsd i spend the majority of my time praying or attuning to a high vibration of love and connectedness to all things. how could that be bad? the feeling doesn't go away after the high does...it stays with me. the signs keep on coming well after the trip has ended. how can that be bad? i have personally witnessed lsd completely transform people who were once angry to beautiful peace--permanently.
it has blessed me personally, has blessed my marriage & my work experience also.

maybe lsd like bananas :tongue: are not good for everybody or in excess--but used with a spiritual intention i believe its a useful medicine.

didn't ram dass say that the guru in india referred to it as medicine?

 

LSD is a tool not the way