Is it OK to kill certain animals?

I don't recall anyone saying that. I certainly didn't. I think your life has way way more value than any animal, even my Maine Coon Cat.

It's just that I think this is an area where intuition is a more valuable guide than logic. And my intuition tells me, perhaps aided by my psychedelic journeys, that there is a continuum of consciousness in the animal kingdom that is roughly correlated to the complexity of the nervous system. This is a guide to how much an animal feels terror and pain. In my slightly flawed conception, Man is on the top, followed by the mammals, then the birds, fish, reptiles, etc.

I value life depending on where in the continuum a lifeform is found. But any human is like a million times more valuable than any animal. That still doesn't mean it's OK to kill animals.

 

You all beg the question that animal's lives have inherent value, they don't. Nothing does.

What's happening is that your conscience makes you feel bad for killing an animal. Even if it doesn't suffer. The conscience is an irrational and highly personal thing and most animal rights activists let their consciences bend them over and have their way, and it manifests itself in the form of holier-than-thou nagging and whining at other people who aren't so unlucky.

I do remember having that oneness with the universe and all living beings on acid, and it was very convincing but I've come to realize that it was a hallucination of perception and nothing spiritual, as it is all taking place in my mind. And since then I've changed enough that I no longer let my irrational emotions rule me.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. I think you need a booster shot. It's hell to live in your head the way you do. As an MIT grad, I should know. I suggest you do some mushrooms. Seriously.

 

And to think you have gained all this invaluable wisdom in a mere 20 years. You are ahead of the game.

 

I really pity you that you let your emotions make you their bitch. I have done mushrooms and they were great. I did plenty of introspection and reasoning on my own as well as having great adventures with friends. However I never once let myself think that by doing them I was doing anything that I couldn't do while sober. And I never let them obscure my rationality. Are you suggesting that I do enough drugs to make me as irrational as you?

Bottom line is I can eat animals without feeling any pain. You can not. However you can derive pretentious self satisfaction from abstaining from the consumption of animals (which is evident in your condescension) and I can not allow myself to sink that low. So who's it to say whose way of life is better? I merely take issue when you imply that your ethics are best for me without justification.

 

So when somebody ignores their conscience or as you call it "irrational emotions" and shoots you in the head to take your money because they think they need it more than you, will you still believe in all that bullshit? You're logic just isn't logical.

You pretty much stated that because you can kill an animal and eat it, you will, and you won't feel bad about it because it doesn't matter...

What makes your life better than that of an animal? If you were killed tomorrow my life would not be affected at all, I could care less and neither would 99% of the world.

Does that mean someone should kill you because in the end its just some free money and no one would care? I hope not, but thats pretty much what you're trying to get across.

 

Humans have the ability to deliberate on their actions and are also bound by laws. Animals do not have the ability to deliberate on their actions and are not bound by laws. These things afford humans different rights than animals. I believe that humans should not kill each other because our lives are all a lot worse when everyone goes around killing each other. This doesn't hold true for animals though, because as I have said, they can not deliberate on their actions and are not bound by law.

Also I didn't state that because I can kill an animal and eat it I will. I stated that because I would like to I will. If somebody wants to kill me take my stuff, they will. Stating that it is immoral does nothing to change the reality that they could and they did. Convincing them that they are better off not killing is a better idea, but if they still do it is their choice and there's nothing I can do about it, besides maybe killing them. Simply stating that something is wrong is useless. It would be useful for you to know that I'm an ethical nihilist and a philosophical pragmatist. That's not to say I have no conscience. I couldn't cause an animal to suffer. But I could end its life in an instant in order to eat it.

And I don't feel bad about it because I don't feel bad about it, as the individual conscience is irrational and does not allow any room for debate.

 

I've never come across anyone who did not value conscience. What's your religion?

 

I do value conscience and I do have a conscience. I don't believe that absolute morality exists and I believe that everyone should follow their own consciences. Please don't put words in my mouth.

I am of course an agnostic existentialist.

 

Sorry. I don't know where I got that from.

 

Probably when he said something about allowing our consciences to make us their bitch.

 

That would be it. I value the conscience when pertaining to personal inaction. The conscience is useful in the sense that most of the time it prevents us from doing short-sighted things that will later cause us pain. Like stealing or killing people. When you let your conscience make you its bitch is when you let your conscience manifest itself in your actions and attitudes. You think that because you feel pain from killing animals that somehow makes you a better person than those who don't, and you flaunt that attitude and become condescending. Some people like PETA even go to fanatical extremes and become hostile advocates for their cause, all because of their quest for pretentious self-satisfaction and smugness and their inability to keep their irrational consciences to themselves.

 

It's only okay to kill raccoons, because they are secretly conspiring to enslave us.

 

Exactly. Why else would they wear those masks.

 

Yeah that's exactly it.
I do it to be better than eeeveryone else. Yup.

I actually never flaunt my opinions about animals/vegan eating. I will share it if I'm asked about it, or if I'm talking with someone I know I can trust and have a peaceful conversation with.

As for talking about it on here...well I DID come onto a Animal Advocates group... silly me...

I didn't go onto some other forum, or onto a meat-eaters forum and go "hey hey look at me I'm a vegan, you guys suck!"

again... if you want to talk logic, it's only logical to say that if anyone here is smug it's the one that invaded the forum with their opposing opinion, and name-calling the people that were here to discuss like adults.

and that PETA reference you made that I chose not to quote... PETA isn't something I, amongst many others here, support, so there's really no reason to bring it up...

there's no reason my ideals should be brought up along with PETA... I do not support them OR the way they approach their beliefs. I think the way they go about things IS completely wrong thank you very much.

Quick to assume AAANYONE who has an interest in animals is a supporter of PETA by default...

you speak in a way that implies you are very confident that you are highly intelligent... but the more you say, the more I feel you have a lot to learn. (especially when you argue with 50 and 60 year olds who clearly have more life experience)

 

I wonder if pigeons should be allowed to live. I mean, have you ever seen a baby pigeon? What if all the pigeons you see are baby pigeons? And one day, they'll all grow up?

 

Oh god, what complete and utter condescension. You're doing nothing to dispel my belief that you're smug and self-righteous. If you're going to tell me that I have a lot to learn, at least list what that is instead of hiding behind your age and so called experience.

You are right about one thing though. I it's rude of me to come in here and disrupt the circle jerk.

 

I never claimed to have a lot of experience... I was referring to you dismissing the experience that those like sunfighter have, and arguing with them in an arrogant and all-knowing manner.

And throwing me in the same category as PETA, is one of the examples of why I feel you have some things to learn about the world around you. Like, that just because someone might feel strongly about animals, doesn't necessarily imply that they are radical or smug and affiliated with PETA.

Along with assuming that somehow me caring about animals translates into me attempting to be better than anyone else. Believe it or not, there are people that do things because they GENUINELY care and not for self-benefit...

but it seems like you don't understand concepts that don't involve self-benefit of some sort.

btw, you also have provided me with no reason as to why I'm so-called "condescending"--- I explained that I am not associated with PETA, and that I don't do it to be better than anyone else, and somehow your only reply is that I'm condescending?

Maybe you just had nothing better to say. *cough*

 

p.s. I am perfectly OK with being my conscience's "bitch" anyway.
never really had any bad come of it.

 

Yeah, when I logged onto this thread I thought it would be a discussion of various animal advocates bouncing around some fine points and perhaps hypocritical rationale of why it is OK to kill a bovine to eat but not a horse, or why ppl see nothing wrong with rabbit leather gloves, but would go ballistic if you made them out of cats or dogs.

I never considered that the thread would be taken off-topic by some unapolgetic carnivore attacking those of us who have discovered in our own conscience or whatever other personal reasoning that it is wrong for us to kill animals. And then call us condescending!

I believe I have already mentioned my opposition to most of PETA's theatrics and that I never fault ppl who eat meat or use leather. I do believe most of the vegetarian/vegans here follow that understanding that we are the cultural outsiders who have elected not to kill animals, and don't proselytize our beliefs. I even respect hunters who actually know where meat comes from, not the serenely packaged stuff in the front case of the butcher shop, but the once living creature.

In fact, as a vegetarian I have worked in restaurants and other professions where I was required to prepare meat dishes for others. I was married for two decades to a woman who ate meat. My decision not to eat meat is my own.

So, I do resent some interloper coming here and accusing me of condescension when it would appear that they are the one having a problem with those of us who do not kill animals.

There was a time in my early twenties when I still ate meat and ended up living in communes with vegetarians in New Orleans. I didn't understand then why I couldn't put my sausage into the pot of red beans and they could just pick it out and not eat it. They indulged me and cooked the sausage separately for me. (I now use the analogy: A roach jumps into your glass of water. Do you just pick the roach out and drink the water?)

This is just an example that ppl do change over time with added life experience and exposure to differences that they may have never considered. I hate to tag it with "elder wisdom" but sometimes I look back on my foibles and figure that it may just be part of the aging process. Within a year of not understanding vegetarians in New Orleans I was one in San Francisco 1970.