is reality subjective?

Well said!

 

my dad always said: "nothing is permanent". took me a long time to realize what he meant by that.

 

this may well be the ultimate truth.

though we can also create and explore and find gratifictaion in doing so
and study and learn to attempt to avoid causing harm in the proccess of doing so.

we can observe that some things happen more often then others, and that some things appear to do so more often when other things happen first.

while we tangably live we can pick up inert objects and hold them in our hands and feel reasonably confident that they are in some sense real.

=^^=
.../\...

 

Reality exists.

It may be useful to understand reality according to such patterns of thought as subjective/objective, but this dualism is ultimately as inaccurate and unnecessarily limiting as right/left, east/west, male/female, yin/yang, etc.

No one has anything even close to a complete perception of reality. The limitations and substance of one's perception may be a matter of habit, culture, and other physical/cognative/psychological conditions, but a belief in a purely subjective reality suggests (erroneously) that there is no reality beyond one's subjective consciousness.

But of course, there are life-sustaining processes in your own body of which you are neither objectively nor subjectively conscious. If these processes could not exist without the creative force of your consciousness, then it would be impossible for you to exist. Obviously, you do exist. So there must be something more than your subjective perception determining reality's existence.

Whatever you may think may be true, but there is always more reality than the things your thoughts may name.

Maybe this is good news.

Peace and Love

 

I actually agree with this. I don't believe that it is my subjective experiences, or your subjective experiences, or any one being's subjective experiences in particular, that determines reality. I just believe that in order for something to exist, it has to be experienced or perceived in some way.

Putting this another way, whereas most people believe that an objective non-conscious reality has to exist before any one being can have experiences or perceptions of it, I believe that if you take all perceptions and experiences of every conscious being that exists, the subjective worlds that they underlie can support each other's existence.

The biology that supports my existence is really a material representation of other perceptions and experiences that have made their way into my consciousness. It didn't originally take the form of material biological processes as I experience it - it took the form of some other kind of subjective experience (most likely completely unimaginable to me) that morphed or changed into the sensory perceptions that I have of my own body that tell me I am a biological organism.

 

I think we know everything. It's just that what you know usually isn't easily definable. Like your own sentience, for instance. Who are you? How can you know what it's really like to be you if you aren't conscious of what it's like to be other people?

So I think subjective and objective reality are one in the same. "What is subjectively true for me is in your objective reality, and you know it, though you may not be consciously aware of it.

As for numbers...the 1 apple plus 1 apple = 2 apples thing. I always had a problem with this, because what is an apple? Is it the first thing or the second? They are similar, but they are also fundamentally different. "An apple is red, round, grows on trees, tastes like (?), etc."??? Couldn't this be descriptive of anything else anywhere else in the universe?

 

i suppose there's always that core question of: "are all you people real, or is it just me in here?" no way to answer that, and thusly, no way to answer the subjective/objective reality question, other than basing your answer on faith.

 

gib 0101, are you suggesting that wherever or whenever there is any kind of existence there is always some kind of consciousness?

If so, then I think maybe there is a deeper question. What, exactly, is the relationship between existence and consciousness? Does consciousness define existence? Are existence and consciousness always identical with one another? Are existence and consciousness expressions of one another? Are all things also expressions of Consciousness? Is Consciousness an atom, a stone, a star, a galaxy, a universe, a human?

Who knows?

This idea appeals to the unnameable sense of the transcendent. You know, the one that suggests, with sublime subtlety, this may be a glimpse of something more real than one's thoughts about it.

Peace and Love

 

To a poet, a tree might be a thing of beauty.

To a dog, a tree might be nothing more than a convenient place to piss on.

 

That pretty much sums it up. It's not solipsism where the idea is that it's only my experiences which define reality - just that if there is reality, it is only in virtue the conscious experiences underlying that reality. It's not anti-realism either where perception is totally unreal - it's that perception defines what reality is.

In regards to the objective/subjective question, I'm not exactly sure how it should be worded. I know what I think about it, but I don't know exactly how to express it without sounding like I'm contradicting myself on certain levels. Since reality is not defined based on my experiences, or any one being's experiences in particular, there has to be more to reality than what I, or any one being, experiences. So is that the basis for saying there is an objective reality out there? In a sense, yes, but in another sense, no. It is objective in the sense that it is a fact - and facts are artifacts of the human mind - they are thoughts, knowledge, belief, etc. So I would say the "objective" character of reality is more a character of our knowledge of it. The sense in which there is no objective reality - but a subjective one - is that what reality ultimately is (if I'm right) is a tapestry of different interacting experiences, and these experiences are, by their very nature, subjective.

I don't know - what do you think we should say about that last point? If a subjective experience exists, could we say that it's existence is objective?

 

how could one possibly know if anything exists outside of their subjective experience? "objective reality" seems to be more of an agreement than a plane of existance.


also, to another statement made-it seems that life and consciousness are one and the same.

 

Staying within the realm of the original question, what is "Life" and what is "Consciousness", and how are they the same?

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or an even better question......how are they different?

 

Ahhh ... I see ... you like playing games ...

Please forgive me for giving the appearance of sounding childish ... but ... I asked first ... you want me to answer your question, you must first answer mine ...

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I can't believe I actually walked into that ... much less responded to it ...

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i responded with a question because i am not able to define life or consciousness in words. i could talk my way around and around in an attempt, but it would only lead in a circle and never the center. my puzzlement is why you would ask how they are the same, while not having an answer for the opposing question-other than trying to make the point that there is no verbal answer. if this was your goal, there is no need. we are in agreement. otherwise, can you tell me how they are different?

oh, and yes-i love playing games.

 

your turn.

 

Then you like playing unfarily ...

Because you will not answer my question, then neither will I answer yours ...

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i didn't expect an answer. that was my point, and my game. no need to be right or wrong here. i respect your question, as it does lead to some creative thinking. if you would like me to attempt to talk around it, i will.


i feel that present experience is life. i also feel that this defines consciousness. this present experience is something i can't describe......only experience, and i'm back where i started....

 

May I?

Maybe . . . "Life" is what one is, "Consciousness" is what one experiences.

Maybe, Life and Consciousness are not nouns but verbs.

Life is being, Consciousness is knowing.

Maybe the question is "Who" instead of "What" is doing all of this being and knowing. It seems this question allows their sameness to be knowable.

Who knows?

Are they different? Should they be different? Why? Who says so? How would one know if they were?

If being and knowing were different, then what would one know? Would there be anything to know, or anyone to know it?

Who knows?

I hope you and I can agree that consciousness exists and existence (Being, Life . . . etc) is knowable. Ultimately, they are the same, otherwise consciousness does not exist and existence is unknowable.

This is a fun game.

Peace and Love