Is there any place for conspiracy theory in political debate?

And still the problem is that nobody seems to be actually disputing that conspiracy theory is used to stifle, derail or stop real political debate – the argument at the moment among the supports of CT seems to be that it should be allowed to happen – that they want debate stifled, derailed or stopped.

 

Honestly, I think I've seen enough input on this matter.

I plan on sticking to the guidelines laid out and in existence in this Forum.

Conspiracy theory has a place among political discourse, but whenever our discussions encounter a blockade within a political context, I'll be more than willing to move it to an appropriate Forum where discussion can continue.

 

Any idiot can agree that if a person WANTS to stifle conversation, they can do that by dominating the discussion. You regularly do this yourself.

Now, you wonder why people just don't go someplace else to post in the "appropriate" category? Have you ever paid attention to those categories and how often people actually frequent them? The most popular categories on this whole forum are "marijuana, psychedelics, POLITICS, and hippies". The rest get not so many visitors. It is NICE when there are some folks around regularly to discuss stuff with.

"Politics" is certainly a catch-all category, because politics is the REASON for just about everything we go thru as a people. You simply can not separate politics from conspiracy, because so many people believe that politics is corrupt. Now, how do you have a discussion regarding corruption in politics (which is ALWAYS going to come up because corruption and politics go hand in hand) without mentioning something that someone would consider a "conspiracy theory"???

I personally don't post a lot of things in "conspiracy" because there just ain't that much action there, and also because I think a lot of the things that the witch hunters claim are "conspiracy theorys" are more like "probabilities". As soon as you lable something as a "conspiracy theory" you take away from its credibility. This is a relatively new turn of events, as credibility does not even have one single thing to do with the actual meaning of the word.

In a nutshell, and something a COUPLE people don't want to hear, I think it's just plain STUPID to try to manipulate and control what people discuss in the politics forum. Politics is in damn near every issue there is. What I DO think needs to happen is people need to remember to use RESPECT towards each others DIFFERING beliefs and NOT try to dominate or overpower any thread or conversation! If this can not happen here, then I am in total agreement that those of us who don't believe in this dictatorial censorship should boycott the politics forum and leave it to the anal stuffed shirts.

Anyone who feels so threatened by people who think theres "sumpthin' up" with politics, or simply can't stand the inconvenience of having certain opinions presented in a political discussion has no business being a moderator. And moderators who can't practice the fine art of respect for others opinions should go totally back to the drawing board.

 

*yawns*

 

I don't see how. Sure, we're giving our wishes/opinions - but they wern't sought out by the people who run these boards. We were told how it's going to be.

I can see you're done with this thread. No reply necessary. And I don't mean that in a shitty way. Just the facts.

 

Earthmother

I’ve covered this time and again – to repeat

(post 20)

If someone wants to have a debate about “corruption in politics” that is fine I like debate, the problem is that some CT’s don’t want a debate, they don’t seem interested in actually discussing the issues or the merits of differing ways of dealing with it but instead only wishing to close them down (if they don’t like them) as I explained in the OP -

(post 1)

*

If people want genuine debate that’s great but if they just want to post Conspiracy Theory propaganda then that’s unacceptable here although they are very welcome to do so in the Conspiracy forum.

 

Hanna

I’ve been here years and have sort people’s opinions all the time (and get them even when I don’t want them).

What people have consistently wanted was a place to debate politics free from the interference of those ‘trolls’ that just wanted to disrupt such debate.

It was once mainly right wing Republicans coming here to shout abuse at the hippies and so we brought in the 100 posts rule to cut down on the one line abusers but as long as they debated right wingers were accepted, thing is, that most things of the right wing project turned into shit and so most right wingers have gone silent.

The other consistently disruptive influence on the forum has come from right wing leaning conspiracy theorists and that is why the rules on linking and cut and paste were brought in (many such CT’s would just paste lots of articles or post long lists of links with no explanation or attempt to defend what had been posted). And then the direct warning to CT’s.

As I say in the guidelines –

Its not so much the conspiracy theory more about the disruption of debate, if it was religious fundamentalists disrupting debate then this thread would be entitled ‘Is there any place for gods in political debate?’

 

I think what underlines conspiracy theories is a view of human nature as ultimately “good”. Proponents of conspiracy theories are amazed at the horrors and evil in the world and try to justify it without admitting that people in themselves are stupid and often evil.
Communism is the ultimate conspiracy theory that teaches us how rich people fuck up the world on the expense of the poor. Of course ,it's not that rich people are 'bad' (cause human nature is ultimately good) but its the system itself that creates it . Therefore Communism concludes – get rid of the system and you get heaven.
Other conspiracy theories replace 'rich' with: the government, the arabs, the jews , aliens whatever you want. Fundamentally, they refuse to take responsibility for the state of the world and blame it on someone else...

 

...................................................................................................

Balbus:
The Left was happy with conspiracy theorey that sculptured the 2000 Presidential Election as a theft by dibold or ballot stuffers on behalf of Republican puppetmasters.

Conspiracy rationalization during past years did damage to the prior administration.

Now that The Left holds The Presidency and both houses of Congress, and they stand to be damaged by conspiracy theorey, we are hearing calls for clarity in political thought.

If you seek discredit conspiracy rationalization, it shouldd be applied all around.

 

Ratt:

The media is too large and diverse to be controlled by any one entity.

Media mostly relies on income generated by subscription from readers or advertising income based on viewership or circulation. Media income is independent of potential controlling intrests.
Its not Pravda or Gramma which are state organs.

Are Ruppert Murdoch and Arthur Sulsberger and Mort Zuckerman all on the same page? Harldy.
Sure they all have points of view. but they differ.

English speaking countries can easily assimilite media opinion from other english speaking nations. Same with all of the Spanish speaking nations.

Nations with controlled media practice a monolopy for pet media. Such publications are flaccid shadows of vibrant media found in free nations.

 

I hate to have to point this out to such a one as yourself, but you are talking in circles and ignoring most of what I say. Which is something you commonly do.



""some CT’s don’t want a debate, they don’t seem interested in actually discussing the issues or the merits of differing ways of dealing with it but instead only wishing to close them down (if they don’t like them) as I explained in the OP """

All I can say to this is if you live in a glass house do not toss stones. You have a reputation for dominating any conversation you do not agree with to the point where you run people off because they get sick and tired of your domineering attitude.- YOU are wishing to run off those who don't CONFORM to how think things ARE and that has nothing to do with forum rules, it only has to do with your extra strength opinions. We have all seen you do this time and time again. Filling page after page with disagreeing posts, pretending you misunderstood or ignoring entire posted ideas is your regular mode of operation. YES, this is a personal attack, because you set this post up to become such. You said you wanted opinions, but you don't REALLY. You ALREADY had all the answers (as usual). YOUR actions are very much like the way government works, actually. Dominate and control everything, pretend you want the "public's" opinion and then do what you want anyhow. That IS how much of government works. Matter of fact, I might guess that you very well could be a politician of some sort...

Now, lets talk about THAT.

In case you didn't know, an enormous cross section of American citizens are on prescription psychoactive drugs and, pain killers, tranquilizers.....
Google it to find out how prevalent this is. That means that either mental illnesses are either severely over diagnosed OR the prevalence of mental illness now days has GONE THRU THE ROOF. That being said, there is NO WAY that people participating in politics are immune. Which means, quite frankly, that many politicians must be 1. either mentally ill themselves, or
2. on meds which have the reputation of causing people's minds to not work clearly.

Now we ALL know from common sense that like attracts like. If you think a certain way you will seek out others who you have things in common with. Government just happens to be a real draw for people who like CONTROL and POWER. Place a few mentally handicapped folks in strategic governmental positions and soon you could have something akin to NAZI GERMANY. The violent crazies club, so to speak.

So, some of us realize this is probably an issue in a lot of what goes on in politics. And some of us realize it's probably an issue in what goes on here.

Now, I'll say ONE MORE TIME and with clarity. WE have see YOU go into ridiculous tirades towards others who you do not agree with, but rather choose to basically SHOUT OUT OF THE ROOM.. How can this be seen as being one bit different than what you SAY is happening in the political forum in regards to "conspiracy theorists" dominating threads. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps your opinions are in the minority and what you are perceiving as a take-over by CT's is really just THAT?

I'd like to vote for the term "conspiracy theorist" to be no longer used in any discussion. You may as well be calling people "niggers". Or mindless fools. Which pretty much shuts down any serious discourse.

I have a suggestion. If you want a PRIVATE forum where only people who agree with you can post, then why don't you MAKE one, invite all your buds, and leave this PUBLIC POLITICS FORUM to free speech? Then we'll see just how many folks actually participate in YOUR forum. You will find that it will work for you better, as you will no longer be annoyed by those who disagree with you, and you will no longer feel the need to play forum policeman here.

 

:cheers2:

 

Oh, but that's what you think. How come the heads of all the major media attend the big globalist meetings like Bilderberg? How come so many of them (on BOTH sides of the left-right debate) belong to the CFR? You have to follow the money. You cannot go based on the face-value presentation. These media moguls are all subservient to the bankers and their military-industrial complex that keeps them living in the utmost luxury. The Murdochs and the Sulsbergers of the world do not have their own political opinions, nor do their non-existent political opinions factor into their newspapers/magazines/news broadcasts. Their opinions are the opinions of the people who control the media at the highest levels. If they have an opinion, it's because it's the opinion they're told to have to maintain the illusion. At the top there are no Left-wingers, Right-wingers, Democrats or Republicans. It's all big business at the top. They are all part of the same exact agenda. Politics is and always has been a con game designed for the masses to believe in.

Nonsense. Who are the biggest shareholders of NBC??

The major media in this country is controlled lock, stock and barrel by the military-industrial complex, which it is a mouthpiece for.

But it's the same outcome under corporate socialism (aka corporatism, corporate fascism, state capitalism, etc.) Instead of the state controlling the media, the corporations that control the state control the media. Same thing.

Again, complete nonsense. They are all elitists. They all attend the big globalist meetings held around the world. They work for the same banking and corporate elite that fund them and keep their wallets fat. The appearance of difference is merely superficial. I am sure these guys are all great friends. Murdoch's role is to supply the fake Right with propaganda. Sulsburger's role is to supply the fake Left with propaganda. It's the Hegelian dialectic. You have to control public opinion by administering two sides and controlling those two sides, pitting them up against one another so the public simply BELIEVES there is a divide in power at the top when nothing could be further from the truth. This is how propaganda has always worked.

And if Rupert Murdoch is a "conservative" Right-winger, as you seem to be implying, then what explains him holding fundraisers for Hillary Clinton? Can you explain that one to me, please.

 

X2 :cheers2:

 

ill have too say that know one seems to relize the issue of what is going on in this thread!!
i could try and deamean balbus or rat, this is not my intention!
RAT, if you want to be heard put out facts! there are so many to support your ideas!
balbus,
stop being a pompus ass!
you revel in twisting outhers words, if you want to continue in the whole thing of it seems! you lose your credibility! you use lots of words and never say anything! then acuse outhers of not! if you realy want to have a disscussion bring it on! not a debate a disscussion!

 

Quoted for truth!


I wanted to say something similar, based on my observations, but you said it much more eloquently.

 

i just had an idea! why i or aneyone els didnt think of it before, beats me? lets make a sub forum? we could call it political theroy?

 

IMO, "conspiracy theory" posts usually function much like fundies citing "scripture" as unchallengeable absolute proof. Both usually fail to add anything to the conversation.

I remember reading the work of C. Wright Mills and others when I was a teenager in the '70s, and feeling that I seeing a conspiracy. But when people are mostly the same in terms of race, ethnicity, income, education, religion, etc., and associate in the same social circles, what seems like a "conspiracy" is often just rich white Americans acting like rich white Americans. In a nation where groupthink is rampant, a lot of things can look like conspiracies without anyone involved actually deliberately "conspiring" with anyone.

That said, as a Bob Dobbs follower, I am in that sense a conspiracy theorist

 

I think a lot of conspiracy theories are just an easy answer to everything and people don’t have to think.
“It is all part of a master plain” the illuminati, the aliens, whatever. The same as religion people don’t have to think they have a prepackaged answer all laid out that answers everything as long as the ignore and contradictions.

But I hear the exact same mentality in mainstream politics also “It is all Bushes fault” “it is all the Democrats fault“ “it is all the neocons” they don’t want to think they just want to stick to an easy answer.

I don’t agree with the conspiracy theories or the simple-minded “it is Bushes fault” but that is what debate is about and that is what FREEDOM OR SPEECH is about..

Most political forums just ignore way out posts and let them fall off the page and only delete robot type spam.

Seriously this is a DISCUSSION forum not a scientific biological forum or an open source software development forum.

I just have a hard time believing that deleting posts that might be labeled “conspiracy” is even an issue in a “free speech forum’ called “HipForums”
Lame..

 

The same thing can be said, and more accurately, for the mainstream corporate media and the people who are content repeating the partisan talking points they hear on 'Face the Nation' and all the other talking head programs. There is far more truth to the conspiratorial view than the watered-down political talking points that are put out there to keep people confused and mislead.

It all boils down to either you get it or you don't.

Now I have no problem with people believing what you outlined in your first paragraph, but often the people making these claims never question things that come from "official" sources. Most of these people probably don't even know the interlocking coporate interests that control these sources where you get all your information.