Israel Declares War on Hamas (bloodshed again)

Dear friend
Any kind of constructive conversation should be without
Dear friend
Any kind of constructive conversation should be without bias and based on logic, so that a constructive result can be reached, otherwise it will be nothing but verbal war and personal opinion. Most of the friends who comment in this forum are definitely sorry and worried about the events that happened on October 7 in Israel and later in Gaza.
There is no difference between Israeli children who were slaughtered by Hamas terrorists, or more than 5000 Palestinian children who were killed by Israeli forces. All of these killed children are
innocent, but we are responsible for their dyeing.
Here some friends comment just for compassion and clarifying the normal thoughts of people, and trying to find a solution and finally prevent hatred from one another.So, we should talk as a human who feel responsibility about the historical facts not just based on what are going on at the present time or what Netanyahu and Khamenei, the leaders oh Hamas, or Biden say for their personal benefits. The present conflict in the Holy Land gets back to the 3000 years ago then the present situation is the result of this long term turmoil which is not our subject to discuses. it is so clear that before the country of Israel form in Palestine, the Palestinian people had been lived there so we can't tell them to get out from here and go all around the world just like Jewish people who had no lands before stablishing Israel. The only way is to stablish 2 states to reduce all these dirty conflict. The action of Israeli army in Gaza is greenside, no matter what I or you think, it is as the same as Nazism had done in WWII with Jewish people. If Hamas mascaraed in Israel, Israel should not do as much more with people of Palestinian. No doubt, killing the innocents people is condemn with any reasons.

 

PGA: Well said; we can DISAGREE-surely-but STILL be respectful of the other's opinions-----no need for anyone to resort to insults and childish banter-----------

 

Daily death toll in Gaza higher than any other major 21st century conflict.
Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day, the highest daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years.

In a statement today, Oxfam said it calculated that number of average deaths per day for Gaza is significantly higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).

Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East director, said:

"The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.
It is unimaginable that the international community is watching the deadliest rate of conflict of the 21st century unfold, while continuously blocking calls for a ceasefire."

Daily death rate in Gaza higher than any other major 21st Century conflict - Oxfam | Oxfam International.

 

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IF IT WALKS LIKE A DUCK AND TALKS LIKE A DUCK AND IS BIOLOGICALLY A FACTUAL DUCK. IT NEEDS TO BE CALLED A GOD DAMN DUCK.

PALESTINIANS BREED TERRORISTS, TEACH TERRORIST, SUPPORT TERRORISTS, HARBOR TERRORISTS, PALESTINIANS ARE GOD DAMN TERRORISTS!

THAT IS A GOD DAMN FACT. GET WITH THE FUCKING PROGRAM AND SUPPORT DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM.

 

Fixed it for you:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is biologically a factual duck.
They don't look like a duck, walk like a duck or talk like a duck so that's your notion proven wrong.

You seem to be a little too far down the rabbit hole but......

Would you have said back in the 70s 80s and 90s that all the Irish were terrorists?
In that same context, would you have said the actual terrorists were bad and the public who sat back and 'didn't get involved', were just as bad because they (as good as) protected/supported the terrorists?

Being Irish was not the same as being an Irish Republican terrorist.
Being Palestinian is not the same as being a Hamas terrorist.

Without having personal experience of what terrorism is like when living in their country, it's all but impossible to know or imagine what it's like.
To show dissent often results in a bullet in the dissenter's head. The terrorist has absolute control of their area and the public can't fight back.

So, there choice is to stand up and fight against the terrorists (and be killed by them) or suffer the status quo that they dislike.
Most are not killers so they tolerate the status quo.

They may appear (wrongly) to be complicit whilst the reality is that they are biding their time, keeping their head down as best they can, until another alternative presents itself which they will be able to support.

I think it's important to recognise that, in the early 90s, as soon as talks began between the British Govt and the (Irish) terrorists, support for the terrorist campaign waned rapidly because there was hope for an alternative.
That led to an agreement in 1998, just 6 yrs later when, in a referendum, over 71% of the people in Northern Ireland supported it and within the Irish Republic it was over 98%.

Most people want to live life in peace.
If all Palestinians were terrorist, there'd have been much more militancy over the past years.
Terrorists want to world to think they're bigger with more support than they are.
Don't be fooled by those same terrorists.

Yes, they need to be removed but not with such collateral damage as has been inflicted. imv.
That's like a surgeon removing a cancerous tumour in the stomach and to make sure it's all gone, he removes all the organs.
To do that would be non-sensical.
Israel's reaction, whilst understandable to some in the beginning is doing more now (and for the past while), to radicalise more Palestinians who, when they grow up, likely will be militant.
So it's a negative campaign, which maintains divisions and more significantly, keeps Israeli's fearful of the 'other side'.
That strategy has has kept BN in power for decades.
It's about him and not about Israeli's ever getting peace without threat.

Those facts combined with Isreal saying there will be no two-state solution seems equal to Hamas saying they want to obliterate Isreal. Two extremes.
It will only be by negotiation that the two sides will move towards a compromise but it will require new people to get it there.
The leadership of Isreal seem determined not to compromise and Hamas are unlikely to do it - though with the previous agreement, Palestinian militants did agree to a solution.


Don't forget US history either.
That "war of Independence" was an uprising against the British and achieved democracy.

That's the program.

American Revolutionary War - Wikipedia

 

IDK, what's the point of bringing up Ireland? Did Irish people teach their kids that their destiny was to slaughter all British people and conquer their land? Did Irish people march into England and brutally slaughter incontinent civilians, behead babies, torture and rape and pulverize the pelvises out of young women? Did Irish people wage terrorist warfare from the houses and schools and hospitals of their people? If they did, did they then lie about their own children's casualties as they misfired their rockets into their own people? If they did all that, would you then foolishly believe their evil lying asses if they told you only 10-40% of them supported their terrorists? Their terrorist children that they cultivates and supported for decades... Do you have any critical thinking skills whatsoever? Huh? Jesus Christ!

 

Oh wow... Lots of misinformation here, tho not intentional. Seems more than usual on all sides.

Where to start, just on this one page?
Most important tho is condemning a whole race/ethnic/religious group based on recent actions of militants who rule over others.

There's absolutely no reason to think everyone supports what their political and military leaders do. Often they're unable to do anything to stop them. How many ppl support Trump? Are we all to be lumped in with his policies and actions even tho a majority voted against him?

So back off condemning the Palestinians or Israelis as a whole. You should be focusing ire at Hamas and the Iranian government and Netanyahu specifically.

Of course some Jews must live out their karma by being the oppressors this lifetime.

Next, Jews have lived in the holy land since biblical days. They didn't just arrive during and after WWII. Those who lived there before are called Sabras. Not many left now I imagine.

Lastly, the Israelis are not killing the most people everyday. Pay attention to the war in Ukraine and see more than 1000 being killed daily including women and children, majority are Russians and their leaders don't give a flying fuck.

 

It's difficult to give a history lesson in a forum post but some things can be conveyed.

I brought up the Ireland aspect because I know it well.
It too is a conflict (not so much military now), that comprised one side feeling oppressed and the other (the so-called oppressor) not understanding why it could be considered an oppressor.
A so-called settlement had been reached about 100yrs ago and whilst for one side it was a solution; for the other it was everything but.

There's an element of them (the active militia), that held that mindset. They have lost the ability to distinguish between the people and the govt of a country.

Some went to England and brutally killed civilians, men women and children. Not on the scale we are hearing about from The Middle East but sufficient to put enough fear into the general population of England that they often treated all from Ireland as if they were terrorists.

Sometimes.
They launched attacks from within the places they were targetting - schools, hospitals and, to be hidden, they often got jobs in places they wanted to target and, then, did so on many occasions killing their work colleagues.

Not rockets so much but bombs which killed their own as well as others.
They killed more of their own side than the other side or the government did.

News just in lol: Terrorism terrorises and suppresses people.
Intel proved that it was the terrorist actions within their own community which ensured people stayed quiet and didn't inform on them.

Of course.
Instead of looking and dwelling on the numbers being killed or the way in which they are being killed - the emotive aspect (the symptoms) - I prefer to focus on the fundamental aspect - the causes.

In the Israel/Hamas conflict, both sides have been killing each other for years.
It didn't start on 7th October.
Both sides effectively 'tore up' an agreement reached after long negotiations which, it seems, neither wanted to stick to.
That has culminated in the current wave of murder,death, mayhem and destruction.

Given the last few months, it's difficult to discern which side is more barbaric so even describing the actions of Hamas as brutal (and they are); that is being weakened as an argument/criticism, because we can see what Israel has been doing to innocents.
If they won't negotiate and, after then, stick to whatever they agree to, I reckon we will just become onlookers and our governments will only try to contain it within that region, so it doesn't spread across the West as they gradually fight it out to the end.

I think, certainly, not until the US government persuades the Israeli govt to conduct itself differently, will anything improve.

For clarity, Hamas needs to be taken out. Israel needs to stop killing innocents because that will simply create more terrorists in the future such that this cycle will continue.

 

Even if you need to assume half of Palestinians do not support Hamas, how to you give aid to Palestinians without aiding Hamas. You can't, it's impossible, they rule. Aid for Palestine = aid for Hamas, and to aid these monsters is unacceptable. In the end, you will see. When Hamas is gone they will regroup and create another group of terrorists. As long as there are fanatical Abrahamic religions corrupting minds, there will be war. That is their nature. There's your damn history lesson, for the future. Make a note.

 

Your racist screed doesn't support "democracy and freedom", it supports Zionism; apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.

 

I agree; to do so is difficult but there are organisations already there doing just that in horrendously difficult circumstances. Nothing is perfect but as ar as food aid etc is concerned, Hamas does not rule.

I agree with what is unacceptable but not the =
I also appreciate that from such a distance, it may not be possible for someone to know how the system on the ground works. It would help if they didn't pontificate.

Prejudice again, me thinks.
If the matter is resolved through negotiation, there will be no appetite to pick up arms. Whether, or not, they do will be down to the negotiators and the protagonists working out a deal.

Nearly but, not quite. Religions are not fanatical. Some people who follow religions are fanatical to a variety of degrees and they abuse the teachings of those religions for ideological aims.
Let's no overlook the existence of so-called Christian followers in the US (and elsewhere in the West), who spout their interpretation of the bible in an effort to get everyone else to comply with their opinion.
It's not how it manifests on the ground that is the problem; it's that people abuse the religious teachings to further their own selfish/narrow-minded aims.
I think that that is the principle issue.
And that applies in many countries including the US and UK and Ireland ( mentioned because it was me who brought that region into the thread).
Human nature sadly, imv, because it's so widespread but that term (human nature) can be used to try to justify not dealing with issues.

However; said 'human nature' is more obvious in such areas where there is an interface with a different culture.
BTW relaxxx; you asked earlier why I had brought Ireland into the mix.
You may not be aware (you're far from that place, i think), but the conflict resolution learnings there have been used elsewhere in the world as a model for bringing about peace.
It's not a perfect peace there. I doubt there is such a thing as perfect peace - not even in the US - but in Ireland and the UK, generally, there's a hell of a lot of people alive today (26yrs on from the agreement) who, without it, would have been killed.
Men, women, children, people from the terrorists own areas as well as elsewhere.

Conflict is not about winners and losers, like a baseball game.
It's about grievances, real or perceived, where some people see no way of having those grievances addressed.
Like a pressure cooker, pressure can build until it results in violence.

(Not directed as relaxxx but instead to anyone)...
Taking those last 3 sentences alone and considering the US, UK, Middle East; doesn't it apply to all?
Have we not seen riots (and more) in all those places?
And riots, when they don't get the desired result, can lead to more, higher-level violence.

So people's from different countries aren't necessarily so different after all.
Their expectations may be different but their sense of frustration and their reaction when they feel suppressed may not be so different.

That's food for thought rather than any sort of assertion.

 

We have to support Palestinians who are trapped in Gaza, even if Hamas gets help.
There is no logical reason to punish 2 million innocent people because it could help the terrorists.
You say " When Hamas is gone they will regroup and create another group of terrorists" You are right, that is why fighting with Hamas is useless, we have to solve the problem essentially. No fighting, no prisoning, no surroundings, no destroying people's lives, no no no anything just negotiating and finding the solution.

 

Dishonesty denial and delusions, misinformation is the most evil destructive force on the planet. Religion is the original mass misinformation machine. Brainwashed minions committing the most horrific atrocities while believing they are the good. Every religion and race, rinse and repeat. Every cult of personality and army, rinse and repeat. Old testament God - fundamentally evil. Vicarious redemption through the torture and death of one man 2 thousand years ago - fundamentally immoral excuse for injustice and evil. You guys want to defend a people who passionately believe a doctrine that LITERALLY calls for the SLAUGHTER of all of you, and you want to believe that it is a phobia to be concerned about this!

Dishonesty denial and delusions, the evil things humans do best.

Keep on defending evil, and see where it gets you.

 

I'm not sure who that's directed towards. I'm not defending evil; I'm calling for the opposite.
Ordinary Palestinians need to be protected.
Hamas needs to be deleted.
Israel needs to change what it's doing.

 

Bazz888 is completely right, we don't defend Hammass as evil, and we also condemn Hamas's barbaric action to kill innocent Israeli people and children, but it is not right to genocide 23000 Palestinians including 5000 children because of evil. What do you think? The Israeli army action looks to burn a barn for kiling a mouse !!!

 

I don't think you have a clue what genocide looks like. After reading that disgraceful analogy, I don't think you have the slightest grasp on the situation.

Let me know when you have proof that Israelis round up and execute Palestinian women and children. Otherwise accusations of genocide are unfounded, and biased, and irrational, and outright sinister. Like South African hypocrites with their own horrendous human rights violations and corruption, no bigoted agendas there, right?

 

My dear friend, genocide as a term means killing people to distroy as a nation , but as reality when we kill 23 000 innecens people for any reasons no matter it is genocide or something else. We killed them ,so we are murder. Don't you agree?

 

When you wage terror attacks from your homes and schools and hospitals...

the blood of your children is entirely on YOUR hands.