It's WAR in the Middle East!

He isn't the only one that changed my mind. And I only changed my mind on the point that Israel had to do something about the rocket strikes... I just wish that their response didn't lead to so many civilian causalities. The 'facts of war' is talked about, but that has nothing to do with what is right and what is wrong, just as you have mentioned. I still think it's an overreaction, but that something was needed to be done about the strikes... that shouldn't have just continued.

It's a very confusing issue and I think many people make great points but none are 100% correct. Like OWB has said, there is a wider and deeper problem here than we are seeing.

 

Okay, so now i'm confirming, through (supposedly) independent news sources (The Guardian, UK), the stats he's listed.

First paragraph, done. Everything is correct.

You get to do the second one!

The third is the quote from wiki i mentioned.

What, exactly, was bogus about Jay's post?

 

But why do these strikes against Israel occur in the first place? People make it sound like it happened out of the clear blue and that Israel did nothing to provoke it. All the media tells us is that Israel is responding to the missile attacks by Hamas, but it won't say what contributed to these missile attacks in the first place. All we're lead to believe by the corporate media is that the Palestinians are crazed animals who act on mere impulse alone, thus somehow justifying Israel's barbaric actions.

 

Honestly, I am a bit ignorant to these matters. I am trying to learn, but I am unsure of what to believe because bias can be subtly embedded into 'facts'. Even clear cut information can be faulty, not necessarily intentional, but because something could have been overlooked. And before looking deeper at this information, it is accepted as absolute truth. This information can be carried over into the debate and become widely accepted as truth with little to no scrutiny. Meanwhile this information gets lost within all of the arguments being made. This can lead to tangents that remain unrecognized within the thread.

But if there are a group of people that refuse to be reasoned with, then what else can be done?

 

All I am saying is that it goes both ways. Americans would react the same way the Palestinians are under foreign military occupation. Considering Israel's history, I don't see how any informed person could side with them. That isn't to say I condone violence from the Palestinians, because I most certainly don't. However, I can at least understand their acts of desperation. Most people don't because they only see what's presented to them in the media, which is that Israel are the innocent victims and were attacked out of nowhere by the "vicious and animalistic" Palestinians. This leads people to believe that Israel is somehow justified in their brutal assault on the people of Gaza, many of which are innocent women and children who had nothing to do with the rockets that were launched.

 

WHOA, Nellie-belle!

Please rest assured that i do not think "that the Palestinians are crazed animals who act on mere impulse" at all!

Something else that just might add a little perspective to this whole thing is just how many people have been killed:

2000 - 2007

Murders in New york City = 7,240

Palestinians killed = 4,228
Israelis killed = 1,024
Foreign citizens killed = 63

An update: Evidently the reported civilian death toll was WAY under-counted. The only bodies identified as civilian were women's and children's...

Who in the world leaves their women and children in harms way???

Is the first clue the citizenry gets that there might be a problem a squadron of jets flying over and carpet bombing them???

Cripes!

 

Palestinians don't have free movement. They are confined by Israel. You have 1.4 million people crammed into a small area surrounded by fences and walls on three sides and the Israeli navy on the seaward side.

And the Israeli Navy believe ramming humanitarian boats in international waters is acceptable. What do you think they would do to refugees in local waters.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/31/content_10585946.htm

 

An independent socienty walled in and controlled by their Israeli masters. The filth they steep in was created by those same masters. Now they wish to tell them who they can democratically elect. If it's not the right choice then you just label them terrorists and the Americans will help you annihilate them.

Israel was not a barren piece of desert it includes Jerasulem, and many other historically valuable sites for all three major religions. Get real!

How thriving would your economy be without US aid?

 

It wasn't quite that simple. Perhaps for those who don't know the history, rent the film Exodus. Good film with a young Paul Newman as an extra bonus. It glosses over many issues, but it also clarifies that not all Arabs were and are after Jewish blood. It might be a starting off point for you to research the historical facts of Israel's statehood.

Then look up Rabin.

 

Both Muslims and Jews are descendants of Abraham:

http://www.lookisrael.com/files/muslimsqa.php

Why do we lose sight of that?

 

I may be wrong, but I don't think most of the modern Jews of Israel are of Abraham.

They're European converts, and a long way from being related to the ancient Hebrews. They have no claim to the land, and thats why some call these Khazarian converts "counterfeit Jews".

Israel is nothing more than another European attempt at colonization in a hostle area.

Same ol' crap. Power and money vs those of us who were trampled on by it.

Religion is just an excuse.



x

 

Firstly, as a liberal minded, pot smoking, fetish laden individual, I have every right to be on this forum.

I assure you all of my post was original and I researched all points personally while I was writing my statement. I read every single post in the string prior to making my comment and I don't think anyone has demonstrated any substantial faults with my logic. I am a first timer to this forum but not a first time forum user. I frequent Rants and Raves on Craig'slist, political forums on Yahoo and forums at urbantoronto.com. If you search my nicname you may find that my post is in keeping with my writing style.

I am not a "shill" for some clandestine organization that supports zionism nor am I a religious zealot that insists that the land of Israel was granted to the Jews by god. I am a Canadian, a realtor and dad with no hidden agenda what-so-ever.

Nowhere in my statement did I villify the Palestinian people nor did I claim at all that Arab or Muslim people were solely at fault for the latest violence. I never stated that the loss of innocent lives was of no concern to us. What I did say is that there is no comparison between what the Palestinians have suffered at the hands of Israel and the confinment and mass slaughtering of Jews by the Nazis during World War II. You weaken your point by making that statement.

How many Palestinian lives were lost during the 6 month partial truce with Israel? 18 I think. Most of which could be described as armed combatants. The truce was working and it was only the insistance of Hamas to stand by their goal of Israel's destruction and it's ongoing random shelling of innocent civilians that brought this situation to a head. As Fyrenza points out, the death toll ratio is much closer to 5-1 than the 150 to one claimed earlier. The point being that Israeli's have a right to protect their citizenry and a much more efficient and effective military. I don't think anyone would suggest that their goal should be to be less effective.

The Jews were the first monothestic religion ever. It is from these Jewish concepts that Christianity and Islam came about. The Jews have a verifiable history of thousands of years in the region. Somehow the world recognises the "Native Rights" of aboriginal peoples everywhere but many still insist that the Jews have no right to any land within the Middle East.

I do point out is that the Jewish people have a much storied history of suffering at the hands of Arab (as well as Roman, Greeks and Nazis) peoples. They had, throughout history, a presence in the entire region but due to racism and persecution by governing powers, all but a few now reside within the borders of Israel proper.

The actions of settlers and the fact they continue expansion of settlements within the Palestinian terratories have been a contributing factor to the present situation. I feel all settlers should be removed immediately from all Palestinian lands and those who continue in this antagonistic action should be punished.

The Jewish people have endured a great deal of adversity in their history but have demonstrated great success as a faith and culture obviously envied by many other people. Through close family and community ties, a focus on education and a strong work ethic, Jews have excelled as leaders in areas such as science, business, literature and the arts. Making up less than a 1/4 of 1% of the worlds total population, Jews have contributed over 20% of the Nobel Prize winners.

For those who claim that the Jews, all 14 million of them, secrectly conspire to control the world and it's 6 billion plus inhabitants, you must imbue them with some mystical super powers that make this somehow possible. It's a ridiculous statement at best.

The point here is that the Jewish people deserve a place in the world where they can practice their faith, share their history and live as a people in safety and security. The world will be a better place to live as a result.

Peace with you all and hopes for a healthy and happy new year.

 

You did well until you called Jews a "people". They're not. Nor are they a race. Jews are followers of a religion and nothing more. Anything to the contrary is just propaganda.

They no more deserve their own country than Rastafarians do. Religious states are nothing but trouble and history has proven this time after time. Democracy is not possible there and neither is equal representation under the law.

Israel is the apartheid place that it is because of religion and the idea of Jewish superiority. The same Jewish supremacist movment that hides behind the government of Israel

Gaza is going to cost Israel this time. And as usual, those who make the decisions are well sheltered from the backlash while the populations are left to twist in the wind.

That means until the populations have had enough, you can't resolve this issue.

The biggest danger presently is somebody coming to the aid of the Palestinians in Gaza. Iran. Syria. Russia even. Then Israel will get it's nose bloodied and come crying to Uncle Sam which will then escalate the whole area into war.

Zionism intends to destroy the Middle East so it can be rebuilt under their specifications.

When you see the Dome of the Rock fall, you'll know the world is fixing to go off the deep end.



x

 

Confined by Israel ?
Isn't one side controlled by someone other than Israel, the rest of the world knows, do you?

 

I just finished this entire thread.

I have so many questions and thoughts. But, I'm celebrating tonight so I won't even try.

Even if I'm not brave enough to delve into it with you all, it's been great reading and spurned an hour discussion on the home front which was most educational.

 

I think Rat is going into panic mode here. He's instructed us on the official conspiracy theory way to think, yet people are still doing forbidden things like reading "the media" and forming there own opinions.

Gaza is not occupied. You are repeating this because it is your memorised response. Israel dismantled its settlements and left years ago. In response, Gazans elected Hamas, which is committed to the destruction of Israel and which launched rocket attacks and raids on Israel.

 

Yeah, they're forming "there" own opinions. Nice grammar.

I can see how a koolaid drinker such as yourself would claim Gaza isn't occupied when their borders are controlled by Israel and all aid sent to Gaza is blocked by the Israelis.

Gaza and the West Bank are under complete stranglehold by the Israelis, and only a shill or a deeply misinformed person would claim otherwise.

 

Running out of things to say?

Occupied means to live in or be the established user of a place such as a home or office or to invade and take control of a country, area, or building, so by definition the Gaza strip is not occupied by Israel no matter how much control Israel has over its borders.

 

Amen, brother! :cheers2:

 

The rest of the world knows that Egypt does what Israel and the US tell it to as far as the border with Gaza:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf