keep the faith**

can we get this thread back to Spirit... god is really getting pissed off

 

NO WAY!!! What are you, crazy???

I'm deeply offended when other peoples faith seems to bring them some kind of benefit.

 

Existence brings 'rain' onto all of us; how we respond manifests qualities that are not necessarily measured by 'worldly' gain: "God brings rain onto the just and the unjust."




.

 

natural23, the point of this story is though that god rewards the christians more than others to encourage everyone to become a christian

 

I'm afraid I can't see the correlation between putting food in children's bellies/giving them a joyous holiday to remember, and worldly gain.

If indeed the woman in this story experienced "worldly gain," don't you think that G-d would have given her a better job and material blessings for herself, instead?

To say that G-d brings rain to the just and the unjust might as well be saying that old adage: Even the sun shines on the dog's rump every now and again.

 

Molly,

Properly informing me of my apparently tangential microrant:

And HippieLngstckng the last time we met was over some other thread, a Fransico thread. During that interaction I gained siginificant respect for your knowledge of Chistianity and your POV in general. You state:

Addressing both you and Molly, I will continue by saying that your initial point about the use of the term "worldly gain" makes sense in terms of popular connotation of the term; for example a rich person has established "worldly gain." In my internal world I have used the term to mean any good, "the next breath." This comes, in part, from the way I have lived and, in part, from my lack of education in this area. Thank you, I stand corrected.

I should have used a term like "worldly sustenance"; but I see anything good as something to be grateful for, large or small. I would no more begrudge a magical hermit living in an oasis her good than I would deny a hungry person food; and concepts of distinction related to this, deeply engrained in our psyche from centuries of passed down conditioning, produce conditions where people tend, often, to be pulled, in a worldly sense, toward a 'lowest common denominator.' Hence, as one of many examples, "get a job, Hippie," and yet this is someone who might bring great, and 'tangible,' good to our world; and if that oasis were to disappear we might very well find, 'down the road,' that some other important things might disappear as well. I'll explain more about what I mean by this:

Looking on a broad continuum, in many ways I have had great worldly blessings in my life. Relative to the dying African child for example, I have always had food, and for this example; relative to the 'midwestern' child of a single mother living near or on the street I have probably always had great food. But even before consciously knowing objectively great physical and psychic pain I thanked God for many events during the day. I thank God when I eat food, I thank God when I 'go to the bathroom.' This is not a 'clawing' or despararte act, it is simply a fact of gratefulness and an acknowledgement of intention. 'Going to the bathroom' and eating food often yoke obvious thanks where a windfall of money, consciously, might not get an immediate and 'loud' thanks; this reflects priority.

I call "it" by many names, not only God. This is something that formed 'organically,' a hybrid of snippets of spiritual, and religious, experience, and a sincere and incessant wanting to know particular answers. I later learned, in a "complex manner," that I will not explain here, to thank God for all events; and although I sometimes use the phrase "thank you" it is really an acknowledgement of the truth, a mechanism of allowing the mind/body to do what it is already trying to do naturally with greater efficiency; it is really a feeling or "gesture of 'mood'".

When anything happens it is actually perfect, meaning the components of all existence have come together to cause the manifestation. Apparent free will is an illusion in the sense that we, and the will that drives us, are much more than we realize; this can, at least, be understood as implicit. Something significant related to this that I see is that the body, as the term usually refers, is not located only where it is typically thought to be and the affect of prayer unfolding from the contiuous acknowledgement of truth of experience produces effects extending "far beyond" what are normally thought to be the limits of possiblity. We are sourced with much more 'power' than we regularly access. Where we know of capability to do good we should do good, and where we know of possiblity to do good we should try; something once thought good can become bad and something once thought bad can become good. The need to determine or establish something for a sense of secuirty is not a good reason to act foolishly.

The legend of the Bishop of Myra expresses a good idea, the story that prompted this thread gives me some of that feeling. Now if someone is involved in putdowns, vibing nasty, isolating, injuring and or destroying others because they "don't go for what's in their book" then that's bad. The first Christmas was in the desert sand and I've been told that there were some humble wise folk who were there to give, to appreciate and to learn.


David






http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas_of_Myra
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102848

 

I may not agree with everything you've written, David, but that really was eloquently stated. Thanks for explaining your viewpoint a bit more... I'm afraid I misunderstood what you were getting at.

My apologies and thank you,
Julie

 

HippieLngstckng,

Thank you. I need a spell checker, lol. I was trying to describe the idea that the reward for doing good and the reward for living a life of spiritual integrity may not manifest with "material feedback," this, also, does not mean that there will not be feedback; "no power is given lest it be given from above" and 'we' do not manipulate, cajole or make God do anything. But given this we have great hidden and profound gifts; these gifts, most often, dormantly waiting for us. When something bad happens there is a 'deeper' reason that is "connected" to "the dynamic" of these profound gifts. And I was stating that we should do good, that we should not injure one another but that we should uplift eachother. Connected to all of this is the concept of respect; healthy respect for differences in our neighbors. Religion can be good or it can be bad depending on how it is utilized. And, that I like some of the feeling that I get from this story very much; and that the first 'Santa' was "doing some good things."


Peace/Love,

David

 

Julie (HippieLngstckng),

You have had me looking closely at the definitions of the word "worldly." Following are some links:

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/worldly

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/worldly%20belongings

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/worldly%20goods

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/worldly%20concern

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/worldly+concern

What do you think about this ?

And to jump directly back to subject of this thread, do you think that "god rewards the christians more than others to encourage everyone to become a christian?" I think that this is a loaded question in one respect that I may elaborate on later, but I believe that this is entirely untrue. What do you think ?


P/L,

David


.

 

Touche, David! This is what I like to see! Polite people with valid points they present in a civilized fashion. I cannot argue with your exhautive definitions (good job on your data refs BTW), but I can say this. Christ Himself said that we cannot live by bread ALONE, but by every word from the mouth of the living G-d.

My Messiah recognizes the weakness of my flesh and my need for nourishment. But He reminds me not to be concerned with this ALONE, for as it may preserve my body in the short run, the acqusition of understanding for His Word perserves my very soul. For one day, this body will die, no matter how well I care for it. My soul is what carries on.... Hopefully.

Indeed, it is a loaded question. That's the thing about questions like these, though. I can only speak from my own experience. In my own experience, I didn't receive too many of G-d's blessings until I accepted His Way over my own. I needed to open up and stop being selfish with myself and everyone else. I can't speak on behalf of others though.

 

there are just as many stories like that if not more that have happened to muslims, hindus, and every other religion, and im sure they all thank thier God also.