Krishna-The next gay liberation icon in the west ?

Again Western civilazation was saved by a bunch homosexual greek spartans and all the gay elites romans & greek that fallow them thru the roman empire.

 

I'm not trying to put you down Jedi.
I agree in a way with your point here - somethings we need to accept if there is to be any chance at all of experiencing them ourselves. In one way, that's why we need faith too.
Where we'd probably differ is that I would say we should keep such beliefs as simple and general as possible. It is enough to simply believe in the reality of the Divine - if we begin to insist on a set philosophy or dogmatic set of formulations, that can actually have an adverse effect. It can prevent any actual experiences of a mystical nature from happeneing at all. God only pours forth his spirit into an empty vessel, not one that is already filled.

 

Just one thing here HH - the picture at the top in your original post is actually a painting by one of the Sharma's titled 'Entering the Spiritual World' - it's available as a print from official ISKCON sites, and also it was used on the cover of a book by Narayana Maharaja - a gaudiya math guru - 'To be Controlled by Love' - NM pretty much follows the orthodox line, similar to Prabhupada.
GALVA have only appropriated the image for their own use.

Incidentally - I sometimes hug male friends, esp. if I haven't seen them for a long time - and nothing sexual is in it. In Morocco it's a common way for men to greet each other - an embrace and a kiss on the cheek. Same with the kissing in France. So it's not always so clear cut. In this case though, as you say, it's clearly intended to have sexual overtones.

 

Actually, the problem here is that we follow different masters who see the same thing in different viewpoints and we argue in our own ignorance- who is right. Its like a child saying , "mommy is a doctor" and the other kid (his brother) would say "no! mommy is a girl".

But in vaishnava philosophy, gopis are all prakriti , like everyone is- prakriti is 'the enjoyed' - the objects of the lila, while the purusha - krishna is the enjoyer. Some souls who are ignorant consider themselves the purusha yet do not realize that they can never be the enjoyer, they are always the object of enjoyment- the servants ofcourse in love. Gopis were so gaga in love over krishna that they were like his slaves ofcourse in love. Same could be said about pure devotees.

 

do you not think the gopis experience maddening intoxication through ever fiber of their being? we are not talking about some disincarnate etherial hocus pocus but real flesh and bones lust for krishna... they are dancing and frolicking in the groves of braja that by conventional vedic standards is considered adharmic and sinful...

 

this is actually not a fixed point as Krishna is enjoyed too... who is supreme is as well not a fixed point for when Radha raises her eyebrows, arrows are going towards Krishna's heart

 

OK - but if so then what is the significance for people to-day?

 

enjoy, be enjoyed

love, be loved

 

Love and sex aren't the same thing. It's quite hard to see any useful meaning in the story of Krishna and the gopis if it's thought of as sexual attraction they feel for Krishna. It's no more impressive in that case than 'gone with the wind'.

 

You don't understand this at all, Krishna is only attracted by devotion, not the fact that Radha is so beautiful. The reason he is attracted to her and the reason Radha is so beautiful is because of her devotion to krishna. Radha represents the perfect soul in madhurya bhakti and God is attracted to that because of the devotion toward Him.

The union between Radha and Krishna is not a physical union. They do not have bodies like we do. They are not physically manifested , they are pure and spiritual. The sex in this world is like bondage, it binds two people together, not in love but in lust, it is not like that in the spiritual world. Everyone is bound to God through love that has no 'physical' attraction involved.

 

Ok I will reveal some of my semi formed incomplete views on homosexuality and bisexuality
This is directed towards only BBB and others need not read this or reply to this

Homosexuality and Bisexuality are two separate things to me

Homosexuals can be divided into two categories according to me

1.Natural homosexuals - Those that have since a young age and due to some inborn condition feel an attraction for the same sex .
I can understand this

2.Induced Homosexuals - Those who are homosexual as a result of environmental factors and external influences
example ---Prisoners in a jail are known to engage in homosexual activity
but under normal conditions outside the jail will not do so

Now this group is very wide based and includes people who are influenced
by external factors which could vary from the media to coercion from your own friend

It is very difficult to differentiate between the two

My problems lie's with induced homosexuals

When people are gay because

1.Its cool
2.They are bored and want to experiment

This is very true and I can give you many examples

Take for example a little know russian band called T.A.T.U (you may not heard of it)
Nobody looked at them or heard any of their songs until they declared them
selves to be lesbian
and KABOOM ! overnight they were celebrities and tv channels were
falling over each other for their interview's





Until recently when they broke the story that they were not lesbians
but did it for publicity

A magazine has claimed that Russian pop duo Tatu have contracts forcing them to act as lesbians or face immediate dismissal.

Read more

http://slate.msn.com/id/2078409/

http://uk.gay.com/headlines/4462

In today's world MTV , Channel V and the filthy celebrities that appear on them have more influence on kids than their parents
and the message they are putting across
is sleep with as many men and women as possible in your life
Because it is cool and I am doing it and enjoying it
and there is no greater purpose in life

The message they are putting through is that it is cool and hip to be gay

MTV even has channel called LOGO for gays and transexuals

Psycologists have even identified a trend in American colleges called

These women indulge in lesbian behaviour because its cool and happening to be lesbian in college
As young men are known to chase lesbians as they are considered an added
attraction

This type of behaviour is unacceptable and incompatible with my views

Bisexuality is even more dubious
Claiming to be attracted to men and women at the same time
is totally bullshit and has no scientific basis

Homosexuals and Heterosexuals are two different homogenous groups and never interact or come in contact with each other
unless bisexuals come into the picture

Bisexuals serve as bridges between the heterosexual world and homosexual world and they transfer and serve as routes for more than just exclusive diseases

The important question is ?
Where does this take us
Is this the begining or the end ?

I feel this is the begining..
Begining to what ?
To more degraded sexual behaviour

Where will this behaviour lead us to ?
I cannot say for sure

But lets just think how taboo homosexual activity was 100 years ago and
and how taboo sex with animals is today ?

Maybe psycologists will come up with new evidence tommorow to prove that
animals enjoy having sex with humans and vice versa
and it is not unnatural
After all we even have half humans and half animal gods who we worship

In 2100 AD when your neighbourhood dog goes BOooww at night
he could just be orgasming with his owner

Once unnatural behaviour is accepted as normal it opens a pandora's box
for there are a million things that classify as unnatural
And to allow one will be to enable access to many

There is one such organisation that I totally despise and
will not wince if its members were lined up against a wall and shot

Its called NAMBLA
(North American Man Boy Love Association )
I can't believe you Americans allow such organisations to exist
There mission is to promote men and boys to fuck each other freely

This is what homosexuality will lead to

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/reachme/NAMBLA.html

All this opens a door to

darkness
ignorence
suffering
bondage

I feel there is no light at the end of the gay tunnel
Its darkness and more darkness

There is a saying in Tibet that engaging in the practice
of virtue is as hard as driving a donkey uphill, whereas engaging
in destructive activities is as easy as rolling boulders downhill
Homosexuality is taking a bullet train downhill

 

HH- I can appreciate your concerns. As I said before, I am really a straight male, and I don't feel it's my role to carry this any further.

I think it is bad when sex is shamelessly expoited by the media and business to make money, as with the 'lesbian' band. But the appetite for such titilation must be there in people or else they wouldn't go for it.
I think liberation is one thing, but that doesn't mean I think all the excesses you mention are anything but bad news.

It's a difficult balance - because as you seem to agree, some people are just made that way.
I'm not sure if a hetrosexual person could really be 'corrupted' into homosexuality - perhaps they might try it, but surely their own desire for the opposite sex would come to the fore again.
Bi-sexuality is a different issue - It is more like old fashioned libertinism. There have always been those whose only obsession is with sex in whatever form they can get it. Dogs is another word.

In the end, I have come to regard what consenting adults do in private as their own business - I have little interest to know the details. I find it a bit offensive when the media is so dominated by sex - of whatever variety. And the internet, in many ways, bears resemblace to an open sewer in terms of some of the filth that's out there.
I have to say that one thing I find more offensive than gay porn is stuff featuring anal sex with women. That surely is sick - that peolpe will pay to view such things.

Sexual activity between adults and children or animals is utterly abhorent, and should continue to be treated as criminal. I very much doubt any serious psychologist would argue for such things to be permitted.

It's important though to keep a perspective here - by far and away the vast majority of people are straight, and homosexuality and bi-sexuality are really the pursuit of only a small minority. I doubt that will change much -

 

Molly do you know the meaning of the word raasa? Rasanaam samuhaha rasa uchyate - the sum of all joy is raasa, the complete gratification and culmination of all desires. In other words, no desires remain after raas. That state of desirelessness is the transcendent state of enlightenment, the experience of oneness with brahman. IF it were sexual, tell me, why were they just dancing? Why was it not one big gang bang? It was not a danc of desire, it was a dance of conquest and sublimation of all desire.

The symbolism can be read in many ways.

1. The gopis are all thoughts and Krishna is brahman, the self. When all thoughts are irresistibly drawn towards the self, and are constantly dancing around it, then they merge in it and there is complete union of jeeva and brahman and total fulfilment.

2. It is said that Krishna took many forms, so that with each gopi there was a Krishna. Thus with every thought that consciousness is reflected.

3. In between two gopis there was a krishna (angana angana chantare madhavam). This is a meditation technique, observing the silence between two thoughts, that silence is the pure self.

4. In between two Krishnas there was a gopi (madhavam madham chantarenangana) In this way we can see it as every thought rising and falling in consciousness only.


The thing is, until we ourselves have purified our minds sufficiently to see beyond the physical appearance, we will only doubt and think on sensual terms. When we rise beyond that then the true meaning of raasa will be understood.

Also remember, the gopikas were not all young and beautiful girls. Even Yashodaji was a gopika. Are you suggesting Krishna was involved in an incestuous relationship?

 

If the gay/lesbian Vaisanva group is using the Sharma painting as symbol of what they're about, it's a misuse.


The painting is a depiction of Krishna embracing a soul who has just returned to the spiritual world from material existence. I've never noticed any sexual undertones in it. What we are seeing is Sharma's very distinctive and highly developed personal style.

Personally, I find the idea of homosexual activity disgusting, but see no reason that law-abiding gays & lesbians should suffer from discrimination in any area.

 

I agree it's a misuse of the image - but these days with the net it's very easy to appropriate images etc for one's own purposes.
I've been familiar with that particular picture for some time, and I never attributed anything sexual to it..

I'm glad you said you find homosexuality disgusting - it illustrates my point that it is not very likely to spread into the straight population. I think a lot of people have a similar attitude - finding it personally distasteful, but prepared to allow that gays should be free from discrimination. As I said before, I think it's a difficult balance.

 

Yeah, at my age I've seen some real changes for the better. Gays were the target for all kinds of abuse 40 yrs. ago and the authorities would look the other way...they were a third-class minority here in the southern U.S. ...worse off in a lot of ways than blacks in terms of general attitudes toward them.

 

I feel sad when people think of homosexuality as disgusting. Im straight myself, yet to me it seems no different than any other relationship. The trouble I think is that people immediately start picturing things when they are confronted with homosexuality, whereas heterosexuality doesnt always conjure up graphic images. Thats just my guess, though.

Its just a natural human activity.

 

I find the idea of personally engaging in homosexual acts distasteful and disgusting, but have had no problems with accepting gays as real people and am very opposed to discrimination against them...I've known gays and had gay friends of both sexes over the years...never thought homosexuality was "catching".

 

i agree Bhaskar

 

Me too.

One of my best friends here in Boston is gay and one at home is...my best friend from home is Bi and so is my roommate...and it doesn't matter...I would go the ends of the earth for all of them...because they are all really good friends...