Laws of nature vs God

Dejavu

The laws of physics may be entirely local to our universe.

As our universe is unlikely to be the totallity of reality
[occam believes this implicitly]

Then maybe it's just a facet
And the laws of physics are like local laws in uzbekistan.

They can be changed if enough power/knowledge is used.

Occam

PS. the only infinity is duration
Reality has no beginning or end. It cannot logically have either.
For something outside reality would be required to start or end it.
And that would be real. A part of reality.
ergo
If reality exists, as it does. It has always existed.
Such may be hard for many to conceptualise, and occam agrees.
It nearly fuses his mind getting some sort of handle on it.

Dejavu, we have talked of 'past' but what of a past without end.
damn cool is what occam calls it.
The universe is full of wonders, and we are just now as a race,
reading the name of chapter one.
All else has been learning to not shit in our nappies. [which we still do]

 

The universe is reality, is infinity, is everything. Anything "outside" it would be a part of it as you say.

Any new understanding of physical laws would be just that.

I love the idea, but yeah many don't. The thought of eternity is not always popular

Yes, it's impossible not to live forever

I may even change a nappy one day!

 

It is not like that, and I don't accept views based on IQ, phd's, or any other label. I agree with Einstein based on my interpretations of his quotes and because they are quite compatible with my own. When you suggest he may have been 'afflicted with the religious gene' you are accepting that there is such a thing as a religious gene, and as I don't yet buy that one, I can't agree with you. Many genius minds whom I have known fit your description and my view is that they may have sacrificed growth in areas such as personality, social skills, and emotional intelligence in their quest for intellect. A 200 IQ doesn't equal life success at all, and some of the wisest folks I have met didn't finish junior high school. It is my opinion that the Einstein quotes are quite topical to the subject. Quantum physics, which is Einstein's legacy, is the study of the most basic and absolute natural laws, and so if Einstein commonly refers to God, then that makes it relevent to this thread.
You state that God is not going to interfere, which is quite possibly the case, but how can you confidently assert what God, if extant, is or is not going to do. Occam states a view most like my own. Laws may be localized, and differ. Time and space are not absolute, but relative, and maybe in some realities they do not exist at all. The super string theories, and the multiple dimension models which so many researchers are proposing are a good starting point in the search for alternate realities.
'Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.' Einstein
'Time and space are modes by which we think and not conditions in which we live.' Einstein
These are more quotes of his which I like.
I don't know if God exists, and don't care, but believe that it is possible, so does that mean I have the gene?

 

Dejavu

Wrong
REALITY is everything.
The universe[what we have observed] IS NOT REALITY
[is infinity, is everything]
The observed universe is but a small thing
It is a part of it. REALITY
Just as Florida is part of the US.
Any 3rd grader could understand this.
Whats the problem.?

You dont think anything exists beyond human perception.?

LOL

Occam

 

i don't get the "vs" bit.
if a god created everything, then didn't it put them (the laws of nature) there?
and if it didn't, then what are they "vs"?

=^^=
.../\...

 

Not wrong at all. Reality is what we observe as much as the universe is.
The universe is not reality? GIVE ME A BREAK! Everything is reality, and everything is infinite. The universe is just another name for this.

A small thing? You think the universe is not infinite!?! Unbelievable!
Where'd you get the idea I don't think anything exists beyond us? Incredible.




LOL

 

Why if the laws of nature are absolute does it entail that God not exist?

 

Dejavu

No

Reality is everything. [you have it backwards]

ANd reality is infinite only in duraton.
The universe is naught but a small facet of this.

Occam

Try to be accurate in yor speach, only those that know everything spout anything.

 

lol

No. Reality is everything, being infinite, and therefore infinite in everything. ie. itself.
There is no error in equating the universe with reality, or infinity, since we observe as much of the universe as we do of reality, and to suggest otherwise is wilful ignorance.

I think it is you who is not being entirely straight in speech.

 

No. we observe reality as infinite in duration
The universe is not.

Universe is a facet of reality,, why keep bringing to the fore.?

Why keep claiming the small part we see is important?
Because YOU are in it?


Occam

 

What small part? Do you see its limit?! lol

 

The small part that is the lives
Of you and me.

Of all huamns..
They are not ultimately important.
They are what they are.

On the the 3rd rock from the sun.

We really mean little , but we could mean a lot.

WE MUST DO.

Occam

 

So now do you see how the interchangeability of "universe" with "reality" does not matter? Since there is infinity, everything is infinite.

We must mean what we mean, however what we will is yet open.

 

Dejavu

Yeh but we have to speak and understand. what each is saying.
Universe and reality is the same thing to most people.

?

Occam

 

Been watching this conversation with interest. Unfortunately.

What I see is each saying no to the other's idea, vollying back and fore.

Yes, we do have to speak. And, yes, we do have to come to agreements on such and such in order to "understand" what each is saying.

But let's face it. All we are doing is sharing our own views on our perceptions of what we think, what we feel, what we see, what we hear, what we smell, what we taste. Nothing more.

No one is wrong in their perceptions, no matter how right their perceptions are. It's not appropriate to say one view is wrong just because it is not the way it is being viewed, perceived or experienced the way we do.

From my perception the Universe and Reality are not the same, nor are they interchangeable. One exists within the other, i.e., reality and all the components that comprise reality exist within the structure of the Universe, as do other realms of existence. There are various realms of existences, various realms of realities, and various Universe's. One's perception in one realm may not be the same perception in another realm, just as simply as one perception in one Universe may not be the same perception in another Universe.

Since we live in this realm, we see in this realm, we feel in this realm, we hear in this realm, we taste in this realm, we smell in this realm, and we think in this realm, then this realm is all we have to compare other realms against.

Infinity is a measurement in itself. With nothing to measure, infinity does not exist, nor does the concept of infinity. Whether it be time or space. Identifying with an "Infinite" something [... anything] is to project our own ideas limited by time and space.

Time and space are mere notions and concepts we created in order to identify our own selves in this small part of the cosmos, therefore we conceived infinity to identify parts of an unidentifiable Universe, at least those parts outside of our own perception of the Universe. I use the word "cosmos" to include all possible Universe's [multiverses] and all possible realms of existence within each Universe.

And, no, the Universe is not infinite. However, the Cosmos just may well be.

This is my own perception.

My perceptions and ideas are no more wrong than yours, unless you can offer sound and logical reasoning to show me where my ideas and perceptions are in need of changing.

Slowly I am beginning to grasp the idea, or let go of the idea, whichever the case may be, that all things arise and fall, neither rise nor fall, appear and disappear, neither appear nor disappear, exist and cease to exist, as well as neither exist nor cease to exist simultaneously (time and space included). It is our ideations, our notions, our perceptions that give rise to cause of all things to become separate in order to say we are experiencer and those things are the experienced ... The Cosmos, Multiverse (Universe), and reality included.

Infinity is a mere perception. Nothing more. And nothing less.

Reality is a mere perception. Nothing more. And nothing less.

We are neither infinity, infinite, nor reality. If we have ideas and notions of what we are or how we exist, or what we exist in, then all we are are the ideas and notions of what we are and how we exist and what we exist in. Nothing more. And nothing less.

We create time and space in order to say we exist within something. We create time and space in order to say something is infinite or finite. We create time and space in order to create our ideas and notions of a Cosmos, Multiverse [Universe], and Reality. One is dependent on the other. Infinity is dependent on perceptions of time and space. Reality is dependent on perceptions of time and space. Existence is dependent perceptions of time and space, especially within this realm of existence since it all we know at present.

Sigh ...

Too bad we have to go about brandishing our own ideas and notions as if they are the only ones that are important and no one else's matter in the least bit ...

HTML:

 

Darrell

Dont agree.

And what is 'cosmos' ? is it not reality?

Occam

 

It's okay that you don't agree.

And what is reality?

HTML:

 

Occam:

Really? Then in this I am as most people.


Darrell:

How?

Where is there nothing to measure?

We conceive infinity to identify the universe itself.

I equate cosmos with universe.

The universe/cosmos is infinite. This is my perception.

My view is more accurate because the word universe, or cosmos does not permit a plural form outside of bad science fiction

Well!

Real ideas.

How would you know that reality is dependent on perception? You may only speak for your own.

Why sigh? I am of the view that ideas, for all the validity they may have in sheer existence, are better or lesser than others in the degree to which they may encompass all others.

 

Dejavu,


You ask a lot of questions and pose a lot of "beliefs".

Too bad you "really" don't want to know the answer to those questions.

That is why I sigh ...

Because you offer nothing to support your beliefs ...

That is why I sigh ...

I sigh because of you, Dejavu ... and because of people like you ...

HTML:

 

a set = a subset of itself? and people argue over the nonobviousness(?) of this error?

sorry but to me this no sense makes.

everything that exists is a thing that exists. yes, ok.
but only the ego argues that everything that CAN exists has to begin and end with what is known to exist.

and where oh where, possibly can, does what is not known to exist having to conform to some totaly arbitrary speculation come from, other then vested short sightedness?

=^^=
.../\...