libertarians posing as fredom fighters, progressives,leftists...

I think there are some things we all agree government is created to do.

 

Taxation is a necessity for the funding of a government, and has nothing to do with liberal. It can very well become stealing, and 'pulling your weight' is something that everyone, rich or poor needs to do. Nations are inanimate, so it's the people who occupy them that make them run.

Yes, I'm sure the 'small sum' you pay in taxes are a minor expense, compared to the cost of providing the things you feel beneficial to you.

 

They are liberals, just classical liberals. It's why the Republicans don't quite want them. Except for the social Darwinism part. Anyone who supports science should appreciate that.

 

We're socially Liberal, economically conservative.

But I don't like being put in the same category as Liberals. Because they're 200% different since Obama took office. Now they want to take away guns and other freedoms that has made our country strong.

 

How can you describe yourself as socially liberal when you want to dismantle the welfare state?

 

Umm... that's an economic issue, bro. I'm socially Liberal because I believe people should have the Right to ingest whatever they want, follow any religion they want, and speak freely. Although, you Liberals are pretty much giving the good parts of your Party up, and JUST supporting the Welfare State.

 

The welfare state (ie. social programs) is as much a social issue than an economic issue. I really don't think liberal means what you think it does.

Also, can you stop referring to me as 'you liberals'? I am not a member of any political party, nor are my beliefs exactly the same as any other person's. My vote changes in each election depending on the people involved and the current policies of each party.

 

I agree with stp about how welfare programs are an economic issue. Social issues deal with things like who you marry, freedom of speech and religion, legalizing or de-criminalizing drugs, etc.

And libertarians are socially liberal and economically conservative... that is fact.

 

Welfare programs are by definition a social issue as well. They are programs that are created to attempt to deal with social inequalities in society. Because they are funded by government, I think it is also very fair to say that they are also an economic issue.

 

Ok- well, I don't believe in government theft to support other people. I've met and experienced people who live off the system. They get free food,(which they sell 1/2 price) free pills (which they sell,) and it doesn't encourage work ethic. Don't get me wrong, foodstamps is one of the last things i'd cut, (I think warfare spending is worse,) however, I just don't see these programs helping people. If you work even an hour a week, you're not entitled to it, and in over 40% of the US it pays more than an 8 hour job. Why should I bust my ass for 12 hours per day, pay 400$ a month for government, when I can sit on my but and have government pay me? That's how the system is abused. Plus, people on the streets can't get it (you need a home.) ODB used to pull up in a Limo to get foodstamps, and Liberals try saying its to help people. I think it encourages laziness and government dependance. BUT (and there's a big but,) government has caused alot of this class inequality, and that's why I said, I wouldn't cut them first thing or anything.

 

Just because there are problems with the system doesn't mean that you have to dismantle the entire thing. There are always going to be assholes who take advantage of anything they can, but the majority of people who use those programs genuinely need the help.

Your taxes also do not go only to these programs - they fund roads, water treatment, sewage systems - things that contribute positively to your quality of life.

 

Have you ever been to America? No one fixes the roads. You always have Construction workers sitting on the side of the road twiddling their thumbs. I live in the most congested city in the USA, and we've been paying an extra penny on every dollar to "fix the roads" for TWO YEARS now. No new Construction, No new Lanes on the highway. Infact, all we got was Construction SIGNS that say "your tax dollars hard at work" and you roll up, and there's NO CONSTRUCTION. If we put 25% of what goes into wars, into infrastructure, we'd be fine. (then you could use that excuse.) Americans have been believe the Liberal lie of the "greater good" for too long. We're really paying 100,000$ for 1 roll of toilet paper and the white house, and 823,000 for the program that "stops waste," to party in Las Vegas.

Are you using the same excuse for this, as you did for foodstamps? Well, I disagree. The system is rotten through, and something has to be done before we lose anymore freedom!

 

And those are the things intended by the Constitution, Article I, Section 8, referring to collecting "Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States".

 

Yeah, but Liberals abuse this all the time. Apparently, 5 year old's daycare is considered "general welfare," the next thing, Liberals will be asking for money for old folks homes!

I think the "general welfare" should be tested on a cost to benefit ratio!

 

Are you implying that it is wrong for people to want to make sure parents (many of which have no choice but to both work) have access to adequate and affordable care for their children? Is it wrong to want to ensure that elderly people who can't care for themselves any longer are not forced to suffer in inadequate conditions?

 

AT

Not that old guff that right wing libertarians are right on economics but left on social issues?

They are right wing on economic policy and most other things they don’t care about as long as it doesn’t cost them anything - that is not being ‘left’ on anything.

Try reading - Rightwing libertarians and drugs
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...?t=368871&f=36

A right wing libertarian system is about exploitation a left wing approach is about helping people.

 

I didn't get that impression from what he posted.

 

Because all Libertarians are exactly the same Bal? Just like all Democrats are exactly the same?

 

That's what I got from post 74, not sure what else he would have meant.

 

He is questioning, I think, who should pay for it.