loose change

The kink ran from the east penthouse all the way down the building. One of the three primary trusses which was under the east penthouse must have failed due to weaking due to fires on the 7th 8th floors.

WTC7 was unusual in that it also had a string of load transfer trusses over an electrical substation below the building. Trusses are a weak point if they are weakened by fire or if damaged by some other event. The lost of the load transfer trusses would explain the global collapse.

A similar event happened when the Murrah building was bombed. The truck bomb took out a single column which in turn took out a load transfer truss, which took out another column. About a third of the building collapsed due to gravity, although the initiating event was only a single column being taken out by the bomb.

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Layout of WTC7 trusses.



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There's no point arguing to a blind man about the color blue...

Peace & Love

 

As I said before, people don't want to really debate this based on rational aspects of it. People claim thermite and then shy away.

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So where did the sulfur come from? The diesel fuel? The sulfur content of diesel fuel is 0.05%. Explain that first.

Peace & Love

 

That kink is a sign of implosion as well.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/building-implosion1.htm

 

To be honest, I don't think there's any point debating you. You believe what you believe and nothing that I say, no evidence that I show you, or anything will change your views. It's pointless to "debate" you because you will never consider the evidence. Therefore, you are like the blind man who will never see the color blue.

Why can't you consider the POSSIBILITY that gov'ts operate to further their own interests? The Hutu extremists shot down their own president to trigger the Rwadan genocide. More extreme things have happenened.

 

I gave two sources. The drywall and the diesel fuel. Steel will sulphidize in a burning diesel fire. It's also a matter of how much time the steel was hot in a sulphur atmosphere and the temperature. There was the duration of the fire plus the duration that the pit stayed hot, which was days to weeks. The steel used in buildings doesn't have any protection to sulphidation.

It would be good if someone did an experiment where building steel was heated in a diesel fire for a given amount of hours at various temperatures and looked at the extent of the sulphidation. Someone should at least do that much before claiming it was due to secretly placed thermite.

What Jones describes about thermite wouldn't look like sulphidation. The metal would be melted through locally, as opposed to eroded away throughout the whole piece. Overall erosion was observed on one of the WTC7 pieces.

If you're not familiar with thermite, check out some videos of it on the web. It's a different phenomenon than sulphidation. Sulphidation can be seen as a scale on the surface of the metal and sulfur can often be detected in the grain boundaries, which was observed in the abalysis of a piece of WTC7 steel. A themite reaction is sometimes difficult to start and is difficult to control. It's effect is the melting of a particular section of steel. A blob of thermite sitting separate from a piece of steel won't sulphidize it. That's different than the effects of a sulphur atmosphere acting on all of the surface of the metal which could be caused by a diesel fire.

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Yes. There's no question that they do. I never said they didn't. What I disagree with are groups who try to advance that assertion by misleading other people (either intentionally or unintentionally) with claims that can't be substantiated. They are basically doing a disservice to their own cause.

And the ones that bring this to the attention get accused of being govt shills, much like I sarcastically insinuated that your bf was involved in WTC (which I know he wasn't).

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So fire caused some sulphidation from the dry wall. I never denied there was a fire. I believe the fire didn't cause the building to collapse. What caused the steel beams to be cut? And where did the diesel fuel come from? Just wondering.

Peace & Love

 

There were a number of tanks of diesel fuel in WTC7 used for emergency backup generators. There were also lines from those main tanks that ran to other tanks on higher floors to power other generators. That's certainly a source of heat and sulfur that needs to be considered. There can be up to a couple tenths of a percent of sulfur in diesel depending on how it was refined.

If you look at videos of the towers, the east wall of the tower bowed inward about four feet over the height of about four floors. The bowing didn't start until about 20 minutes after the initial aircraft hit and worsened over the next 20 minutes. The building buckled catastrophically on the east side where it was bowed inward. The same thing happened on the south wall of the north tower. The fact that this took time to occur indicates it was fire-related. The steel took time to heat up and lose its strength.

It's also worth noting that the bowing and side where the collapse started in both towers was the side with the longest floor spans. The heating and sagging of the long-span floors (about 60 feet long) likely pulled the side of the building inward. The walls lose much of their load bearing strength when they are bowed compared with being straight. The 6X safety factor is no longer valid when the walls are bowed inward.

I'm not sure what you are referring to about cut beams. Many columns separated at their splices which where weaker than the columns themselves. Splices were either bolts or welds. That resulted in many short straight columns in the rubble. If you look at pics of the rubble you will see many columns with failed splices (broken or bent bolts, empty bolt holes, remnants of weld seams, etc). Also, many pieces were cut with torches during the cleanup and have a serrated look. I saw one piece of debris metal that had a brittle type fracture. It may have fractured quickly in a brittle manner as a result of the aircraft striking it at high speed.

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Anyone interested may want to check out papers by Flatley that discuss sulphidation rates of steel. Also, Greening has done a good treatment of all the sulfur-bearing materials in the WTC, such as gypsum, vulcanized rubber, polymers, paper, wood, and diesel fuel. He also details the chemistry of how they can be converted to SO2 gas, H2S, and sulfur-bearing slag in conditions that were present in the fires and rubble. H2S and sulfur slags are even more corrosive to steel than SO2.

I propose one more scenario that Greening apparently didn't mention, namely the reaction of SO2 with water that was being sprayed on the rubble which could result in a sulfuric acid solution. A similar thing happens when rain drops interact with SO2 in the atmosphere and make acid rain. Considering all the sulfur available from powdered gypsum, water in the rubble, and high temperature, it's possible that potent concentrations of sulfuric acid developed.

Sulfuric acid will etch away steel at a high rate, especially at elevated temperature. I use it to etch away steel tubes that I use to encapsulate metallic specimens.

Greening's paper:

http://home.flash.net/~lauras34/Sulfur.pdf

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WTC7 is more difficult to characterize since the damage and fire was interior near the ground level and couldn't be seen like the bowed-in walls on the towers. No one really has a generally accepted theory of how it failed since no one was inside of it to see the damage and fires. It was still on fire right before it collapsed, which was about 7 hours after the north tower collapsed. If you watch video of its collapse, a large amount of smoke is still seen coming from the lower region of the south side.

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Shaggie, you can also help myth busting in this thread: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152326