Mescaline extraction from San Pedro/peyote?

aight, sounds good. the only thing im unsure about is.... ALL QUESTIONS APPLY TO STEP 5.

1. IN STEP 5 SHOULD THE pH OF THE WATER BE 3 OR THE XYLENE BE 3, OR WILL BOTH BE THE SAME? DO LITMUS PH STRIPS TEST THE PH OF ANY LIQUID?

2. AND HOW MANY DROPS OF ACID SHOULD I ADD AT A TIME AND HOW LONG SHOULD I LET IT DIFFUSE INTO THE SOLUTION?

3. IS IT OKAY TO USE HYDROCHLORIC ACID AND JUST ADD ENOUGH TO MAKE IT ACIDIC? IT SAYS "IF USISING CITRIC ACID", THEN YOU CAN DO THAT.

4. TO DO MULTIPLLE EXTRACIONS DO I JUST TAKE THE WATER I TOOK FROM THE SEPARATED SOLUTION, PUT THAT BACK IN AND ADD MORE XYLENE INTO THE JAR AGAIN?

 

1.the aqueous bottom layer will be 3, and yes, strip test pH of any liquid

2.add dropwise.

3.yes

and
4. yes. siphon off the xylene layer, put in another jar, add fresh xylene to the aqueous solution, and repeat (3X)

 

aight, thanks man



THATS ALL!!!

 

no prob...

remember...in the extraction process in step 5, you leave the aqueous layer...it's the xylene you discard.

evaporate the water left over, that will have the mesc hcl

 

generally speaking, peruvianus is more potent... analogous like chaliponga to chacruna

 

Another couple of questions (I also asked in the cactus forum):


I've run across a different recipe where the guy says defatting is not necessary:

http://www.drugs-forum.co.uk/forum/...read.php?t=3797

Does fat suspended in the xylol inhibit the alkaloid extraction?

Does the fat somehow come out in the end product? -If using citirc acid in water solution mixed with and separated from the xylol, the fats should stay in the xylol (not mixed in the H2O), correct?

So, why is defatting recommended?

Also, why is ammonia preferred by some over sodium hydroxide as a base?

 

no. xylol is a nonpolar solvent, and fats are also non polar, so the fats will stay in the xylol phase, but the alkaloids will all be in your aqueous phase.

not if separated sufficiently, correct

so you won't have seriously gummy byproducts, which will surround your alkaloids

and ammonia isn't as basic as sodium hydroxide; you'll have more control over its basicity. ammonia tops off around 10 or 11 (you only need to raise the pH to about 8 or 9), sodium hydroxide may take the pH all the way up to 13 or 14, which means if you over shoot, you'll need to add more acid, hence you'll be left with a hell of a lot of water.

for titration purposes (that is, manipulating the pH), ammonia is easier to work with.

 

My question is why defatting is necessary at all.

You mention fats surrounding the alkaloids.
Has SWIY ever done it without defatting?

The method in the link seems to have no problems with fats.
http://www.drugs-forum.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3797

 

"...then I added 1.5 gallons of xylene..."
"this process requires no defatting, I discovered"

these two statements are counterintuitive, because fats are soluble in xylene. the xylene layer contains plant fats, and the middle has insoluble plant residues. he was defatting without even realizing it.

it's not absolutely necessary, but highly recommended: there is far more plant fat (by mass) than the alkaloids you seek to extract. If you did an extraction with a polar solvent like ethanol, rather than a defatting/nonpolar solvent like xylene, you'd be left with a big fatty mess, along with your alkaloids. using the defatting agent separates the fats from your alkaloids, making things a lot cleaner.

an alcoholic extraction (also, san pedro tea) is such an instance where you have one of the crudest forms, without defatting. ultimately, it's really up to you; how much gunk you're willing to swallow, and how much chemistry you're willing to do. If it were up to me, the end product would be off-white crystalline needles.


p.s. - PrideKills' concern is illinformed and unfounded. Xylene is dimethylbenzene, the liver metabolyzes it into the relatively benign methylbenzaldehyde, which is excreted through the urine.

Benzene, is a completely different animal; it gets metabolized into an epoxide, which may (in large concentrations) lead to leukemia.

the end product should always be devoid of ALL solvent anyway; evaporation gets rid of any solvent, leaving behind your consumables.

 

Okay, I'll try again...

After boiling down, the recipe calls for:

1) Turning your cactus solution acidic,
mix with xylol,
separate,
(discard xylol).

2) Turning your cactus solution basic,
mix with xylol,
separate,
(use xylol to process further).

Why not skip the stip the first of the two steps above? There seems to be no negative consequences as evidenced by the photo documentation in the link provided.

 

??

I'm not sure what you're asking.


here's the one I go by http://home.graffiti.net/neurochemajor/mescaline.extraction.html

 

Okay, why not omit "Step 2: De-Fatting" of the link you just provided?

The procedure I linked to is the SAME process, just WITHOUT YOUR STEP 2!

I don't know how to make it any more clear than that.

 

my answer is still the same: you're going to be left with a lot of junk you don't want.

all you'll do is hydrolyze plant fats by adding acid, then base, without defatting; you'll literally have plant soap with your alkaloids... yummy.

in that procedure you posted, he didn't omit any steps... again, xylene defats, whether you want it to or not.

(taken from Merck Index 12th. Ed (10214 - Xylene.): Direct contact may cause ... skin irritation and dermatitis due to defatting action .


the procedure isn't all that involved; but if you don't want to hassle with it, just make a san pedro margarita.

 

Well, for everyone else who is interested...
In the other post,

OneDiaDem says, "This process requires no defatting I discovered, the only oily plant material coming into the solvent is yellow chlorophyll and it does not defat effectively."

allyourbase says, "right on, I find that defatting is rarely a worthwhile process for all but seed ethnobotanicals."

DrugPhreak says, "It's true that defatting the cactus syrup is basically a waste of time... I learned that the hard way with loss of product too."

*And by defatting, I (and the rest of the world except for polymer) mean the turning of your polar, aqueous, alkaloid containg solution acidic, then mixing with a non-polar solvent, separating, and discarding the solvent.

So, that's three people with actual experience with BOTH methods who claim that the non-polar defatting wash (as just defined) is not necessary versus one.

SWIM will just have to see for himself how soapy the end product will be.
According to the first-hand accounts, it will not be a problem.

 

oh man....

somebody tell homeslice that either xylene or naptha is involved in plant extractions, this includes the defatting process....

no time for blatant ignorance. i've replied with nothing but the tried and true.

 

I would listen to polymer.

 

And yet you fail to grasp the focus of my question.


Here we go one more time, (though I fear for some reason that you are being intentionally obtuse).

Question #1 - Does the recipe that you provided a link to include a step involving discarding any xylene? (HINT: Yes. See Step 2 - Defatting.)

Question #2 - Does the recipe that I linked to include a step involving discarding any xylene? (HINT: No.)

 

same answer: xylene retains a lot of fatty crap, dirtier end product.

I'll trust past experience, along with useful advice from bonafide chemists from the Rhodium camp, over the word of lazy flunkies any day of the week. Contending that tossing out the fat results in a loss of alkaloids is just plain silliness.

the end.


(note: i never said it was imperative to defat; if you don't defat, you're just going to waste more solvent in the recrystallization step, or else you'll have some reallly dirty sh1t.)

 

I never suggested that tossing out the fat laden xylene would result in a loss of alkaloids (so long as you have your pH low enough).

As for past experience, have you tried both processes?

I would trust chemists over lazy flunkies as well. But, you have to consider the intentions of each. The chemists are usually going for pure mescaline, in which case they do what they need to in order to achieve complete purity at every step. People who are just going to extract the alkaloids, (not really worry about the clinical purity), might concern themselves with the simplest, best procedure - so long as there are no negative effects from whatever extraneous junk might be included. Like smoking the whole bud instead of just hash.

SWIM will try it both ways and see for himself.