New Hare Krsna website with Prabhupada in the center

Bill, what you describe, the oppression, the hurt and violence, is not religion. Just as a delicious entree with poison in it cannot be considered food. True religion is the entree, don't judge it by the poison introduced by those who abuse it for their self ends.

As for the manusmriti, again I ask you not to rely on translations, for the cause many a problems.
It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); for that reason the wise are never unguarded in (the company of) females.

The original verse is better translated as it is the nature of men to be seduced by women, therefore they must always be on guard. The reverse also applies, however, since students of the time were almost all men, it was not necessary to state.

Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence.

More than a law, this was a statement of the way society worked in those days.

Agreed many of the archaic moral codes are no longer applicable. However, let us not judge the ancients, for our own morals are nothing to write home about.

Whenter someone believes it or not, they have to be conscious to be moral. They have to have life in their body. Vedas teach that that consciousness and life-force in us brahman, or God. In that sense, morality, immorality, right, wrong all things exist in the divine only.

 

I'd like to feel able to agree about the first point, but the fact is that in some religions, eg Islam, there are definite instructions to engage in what we today regard as human rights abuses. It's part and parcel of that religion, and in many Muslim countries it is carried out as part of the culture which Islam has created.
In this instance, the religion is the main barrier standing in the way of progress towards a more humane and acceptable society.

All this seems like a product of a somewhat paranoid patriarchy. It is highly insulting to women to regard them as mere seductresses. It may be the way society worked at one time, but is simply out of tune with the needs and demands of today. There are many females from various religious backgrounds who are regarded as saints - noteably though, not in Islam.

I don't think we should judge the ancients or even the medievals - but their notions of morality and how to organize society leave a great deal to be desired.
And also, there is now science - so we know, unlike the ancients, the facts of human reproduction and conception. To base our ideas on pre-scientific fantasy which is now wholly discredited is a recipe for more ignorance and little else.

 

The science we have now was very much available in the vedic age. From test tube reproduction to plastic surgery.

And again, I never said that women must be regarded as seductresses, but that a man must be aware of his own lusty instinctive attraction to women, which is spiritually harmful.

 

Also I'd appreciate if you could quote quran verses that state the things you insinuate, for I am certain it is either an error in translation, a misinterpretation, or a interposition.

 

The thing is that evidently in the vedic age, according to the item posted above, there was no knowledge of the mechanisms of reproduction such as has only been discovered by modern empirical science. The nonsense about male and female seed in even and uneven quantities for example is sheer rubbish, and shows that like very other culture up to the time it was scientifically discovered, no-one thought women had eggs in their bodies. Same goes for the times for concieving offspring of either sex - this is pure superstition.

I don't think the overall repression of women in many traditional cultures comes only from a wish to protect the male from his own desire. The same is never said of women - that they too can be lead astray and seduced. It's all one way, and that way is male dominance and supremacy. The very fact that you say it was mainly men who the texts were written for is indicative of the whole bias against attributing to women any possibility of being spiritually equal to men.

 

del.

 

Here's couple of verses from the Quran that seem to prscribe barbaric punishments. It's hard to believe the mis-translation could be that inaccurate..


[24.2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.



[5.33] The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

 

details please... are we talking breast augmentation, lipo suction, nip and tuck here and there or are you refering to the plastic surgery done by Lord Shiva by attaching an elephant’s head on his son’s body or by Ashwini Kumars who successfully replanted the severed head of Yagna?

 

Actual quotes would be helpful here too -

 

vedic test tube birth from wikipedia

Birth
When Dhritarashtra's queen Gandhari's pregnancy continues for an unusually long period of time, she beats her womb in frustration, and envy of Kunti, the queen of Pandu who had given birth to the five Pandavas. Due to her actions, a hardened mass of grey-colored flesh emerges from her womb. Gandhari is devastated, and worships Vyasa, the great Sage who had blessed her with one hundred sons, to redeem his words.

Vyasa divides the flesh ball into one hundred equal pieces, and puts them in pots of ghee, which are sealed and buried into the earth for one year. At the end of the year, the first pot is opened, and Duryodhana emerges.

 

I see.


No mention there of test tubes.

 

What is a test tube baby? An egg fertilized outside the womb. This fits the description. Again Sage AGasthya was called kumbha-sambhava, one born from a jug.

The story is that Mitra and Varuna placing their " seeds" in a water urn (Kumbhaa) in front of lady dawn represented as the celestial nymph Urvasi. From their seeds were born Agasthya (the mover of the mountains/agasthi ) and Vasishta ( owner of wealth). His birth is mentioned in many puranas (Matsya, Padma and Brahmanda Puranas) and in Mahabharatha. Rg Veda(7.33.13) mentions his birth.

 

Ok - but I consider this mythology - it has little in common with scientific techniques. And it demonstrates non of the knowledge which would be necessary to create a test tube baby. The link seems tenuous to say the least.

 

Fine, forget test tube babies. Even so, ancient Indian medicine was very very fasr advanced. I suggest you look up Sushruta for one, a surgeon from ancient India, whose book the Sushruta samhita does exactly what you ask for - give detailed techniques necessary.

 

Mysogony and pseudo science, perhaps. But from another perspective, we can say that laws are written as seen appropriate for a certain period of time , if they are taken out of context, they may represent something else entirely.

 

Thanks - I'll look into this.

 

True or not true, the greatness of India is its spiritual heritage... second to none.

 

True.

 

Certainly there is much spiritual wisdom etc in Indian tradition - not much in the way of 'hard' science though, despite claims to the contrary.
Myself, I don't believe the ancient or medieval Indians knew much about either biology or physics as science defines these terms. All the advances in these areas has come within the last 200 years or so. Before that, mankind as a whole had no knowledge of facts we take for granted, such as disease being caused by bacteria, the true mechanics of reproduction etc.
Nor did they know about the true structure and scale of the physical universe. The existence of galaxies for instance were not known until the 1930's.

 

That statement can be interpreted in ignorant ways.