No more faith in thinking

you got that did you?

Anyway the person i was quoting got it wrong when i wrote that...

 

sorry kami, I disagree with you entirely about this.

 

It almost seems as though the state of mind you've been talking about is somewhat "blissful". Ignorance is often associated with a blissful state of mind, however I think it is very possible to be in a state of bliss and actually break down or simply avoid our biases. Due to our inability to ever not think in some way or another (you've been talking a lot about thoughts) we may never know what a true bliss is, a positive bliss that is. As far as I can tell through experience, meditation is the closest we can come to that "thoughtless" bliss. In which we think but we don't think...if that makes any sense at all...I realize it "sounds" very contradictory/ironic. We think deeper, because we are trying to enter that blissful state of mind in order to gain more perspectives that are based upon thought. So, while we are trying to "clear" our mind of all thought we are essentially trying to encourage thought, only the thoughts we are trying to induce are "fresh/new". They often go against our biases and allow for us to look at our original thought from that other perspective, which in turn has the ability to produce new thought. Basically what I'm trying to get at is that although thought can be very detrimental to our "well being", it is very necessary in our daily lives, it's the quality of thoughts, not the quantity that matters. In order to gain in quality we must first look closely at the many thoughts that make up that "quantity", but not be "thinking" while doing so....we must be in that blissful unbiased state of mind before we can truly understand a new or different thought.


It's like this depiction, because when we enter that positive "bliss" we become "translucent" in a way, both physically and mentally. We become one with what Lao Tzu would refer to as the Way, what a Rasta would refer to as Jah, a Stoic as the eternal fire etc...etc....

 

well bliss is perhaps one way to describe a certain depth of this, but it's very easy to slip into a mental concept of what "bliss" is.

Avoiding biases doesn't work because they're still there, just simply hidden from awareness. Breaking them down doesn't work either because this involves a process, which means time, which is born of thought. So to invoke thought in order to be empty of thought doesn't work.

Ignorance in this case means a mind empty of its preconceived and conditioned thoughts. It must be like an empty cup.

This is not true. Conditioned thinking is not the only reality available to us. Even this is not a correct way of putting it. Perhaps a more accurate statement would be: we are that which is free of conditioning, knowledge and time.

As I said before, there is a difference between conditioned thinking and inspired awareness (aka insight). One involves time and fragmentation, the other occurs now and arises from the pure awareness of Being. "positive bliss" is meaningless as it implies negative bliss, both concepts being a part of duality. "Bliss", or mindless awareness, is beyond duality.

You're getting closer here. But we have to clarify what we mean by meditation. Meditation can't be a process toward achieving something, even if the objective is a particular state of mind [free of thinking]. As soon as meditation is equated to a process then we're back in time and thinking. So meditation in this case would have to mean being fully present now, without agenda of any kind. The state of meditation becomes a blank screen of awareness, and upon the screen "things" arise... thoughts, emotions, images. As soon as a judgment enters "I shouldn't think that" or an agenda such as "I should stop thinking", then the meditative state is gone and awareness has become enshrouded with conditioned mind patterns.

No, we're either thinking or the mind is empty & still, aware, open to receiving insight. And insight is NOT equated to conditioned mind patterns & thoughts. There can be no trying. Trying automatically puts us back in time and thinking. Trying implies effort. Insight comes to a ready mind, without effort, without time, without a process, without agenda. It's like sunlight that is always shining but only floods into the room when the blinds are open. Stilling the mind is the same as opening the blinds. It's not a process, it happens instantly. Like a light switch: on or off.

Yes, in the trying we encourage thought

Well without the trying aspect of it, when the mind is still then something "fresh & new" does enter, called Insight, which is a light that puts everything in proper perspective instantly.

Only "thoughts" born of Insight, not conditioned mind patterns, have any use or benefit. Life can be lived without conditioning of any kind, everything arising in the Now, flowing naturally without separation or fragmentation of any kind. There is no quality other than this.

First let's clarify that quality can't be gained, as in added-to a state devoid of quality, but like a toggle switch can be accessed instantly. It's easy to slip back into duality with the way we consider something. And yes I agree with you that it's vital to closely observe the mind patterns. This must be done without judgment or agenda. We must be willing to employ total honesty in the observation, to see what is as it is. So often we avoid or deny the "ugliness" that we see, and so become stuck and unable to be free of it. So let's say we observe that there's a feeling of jealousy. Ok, so there's jealousy. There's the emotion, and there's the awareness of the emotion, without judgment, simply observing what is. In the complete acceptance of what is, there's freedom from it. And what was once stuck, by our resistance and denial, now is let go, and a new state of awareness is discovered.

Well I'd say transluscent psychologically. Let's not get ahead of ourselves regarding physical transluscence. Perhaps some have done it, I don't know. Yes, "one with the Way" is a way of putting it, but really, what it amounts to is no separation. We are life, not Me and Life, not two.

 

Avoiding biases clearly does work, if it didn't we wouldn't dream. Read some Freud or Jung...they will explain it much better than I ever could. Naturally they are still present, so we aren't "getting rid" of them immediately, rather avoiding them is exactly what we are doing. By developing these abstract sequences that are made up of thoughts, represented by people, objects etc...and strung together by the like as well we "avoid" the guards (biases) so to say and allow for our mind to think if not completely unbiased at least more so than when conscious (awake). Then it's up to us to interpret them, because only we can connect the dots, ie. the objects with what they represent etc....This is my opinion, and very similar to that of Freud's...it's what I hold to be "true", if you do not I'm not going to even try and argue with you...there's not point in that. No harm done in holding different opinions regarding this.

Hmmm...when one sits and meditates, the fact that they have just sat down immediately acts of proof that they are "trying", otherwise they would not have sat down, or even considered meditation in the first place. If we didn't have to give that initial effort (trying) and could simply reach those realms of thought or whatever you want to call "it" while not meditating then we wouldn't and then we would not have to "try". From personal experience, when I "still my mind" it can be like a light switch, however when I meditate I sit for some time before I enter that "bliss" and sometimes it comes slowly, other times quickly. At this point you're right...I don't want to "try", or at least not think of it like that, but in reality I am actually "trying" to enter that state of mind, otherwise I wouldn't be meditating in the first place.

Is insight not also based in thought? (When I gain "insight" it's usually due to a new way of thinking or thought.)

Can life be lived without conditioning of any kind? I believe it can, but in a humans case...if we are not brought up not only in a physical sense, but mental as well then how could we survive? And I suppose quality is in the eye of the beholder...

I'm very interested in what you are saying here. My only question is, by accepting what is do you mean also not intending to change what "it is" as a result? Many things can not be just simply be "let go" unless we deal with them in some way or another. Take for example what you said about jealousy....so one comes to "accept" the fact that their jealous....then it just fades away? Doesn't sound right in my mind....that's why I asked that question.

I'm not trying to disagree with anything you are saying....this isn't really a subject to agree/disagree with. It's mostly spiritual and therefore personal, so these are my opinions/perspectives on the matter...not trying to say you are wrong or right, just giving my 2 cents if you will.

(Oh and I think I finally found a forum where majority of people actually think about what they are posting! Thank you bluesfire and the rest of you for actually encouraging intelligent thought....I was stuck in random thoughts section thinking I could find these discussions there....)

 

When I said that avoiding does not work what I meant was that whatever it is we're avoiding doesn't go away but continues to exert influence, albeit from a position more hidden from view. Detection is necessary for release. The ego defense mechanisms, being one of Freud's best contributions to understanding the ego, IMO, only work as far as protecting the ego, but not for promoting freedom from it, obviously. Let me add here that by ego I'm referring to a false sense of "self", or really... any sense of "self" as an individual.

Please, no argument or debate necessary. Let's just talk and share our views OK? I have no desire to push or convince, and if the sharing becomes unwelcome please let me know.

What I get from what you wrote above is that we keep the monster at bay, so to speak, which allows for a superficial experience of apparent sanity. And yet, it's riddled with misperception, avoidance, denial and the rest of it. It's all illusion. It's when the success of keeping the image in place becomes compromised that we suffer. And then.... do we build stronger illusions or awaken from them??

This is very likely to be true. Why would anyone require a ritual to simply be present? And in the introduction of the ritual they keep the simplicity of being present at bay. Sometimes they get lucky and the ritual drops away. But often it acts as an inhibitor to the intended outcome.

Yes, I agree. As a general suggestion (not speaking personally here) one may sit down in a quiet environment, not to accomplish some future objective, but to simply be still and see what is there to see now. And observe... is there efforting? is there trying going on? is there a desire for something? are there thoughts? are there "shoulds" or "should nots" on top of the thoughts? what is the running commentary or dialogue and is there resistance to that being there? what is the energy doing? And of course this can be done at any moment, whether in a quiet environment or while sitting in traffic waiting for the light to change, or when in line at the grocery store, or while brushing teeth, etc.

And what I'm suggesting is that perhaps you can observe in yourself and question the thought that a ritual of any kind is necessary in order to access this bliss now.

If you look very closely you may notice that insight arises as a knowing without thought of any kind. And then perhaps thought is utilized as a sort of framework for it. It's very easy to lump these together as the same thing. But the difference is like night and day between insight and conditioned mind patterns/thoughts. Thoughts, when directed by insights, can be useful servants. It is when they become masters, through unconsciousness, that they wreak havoc.

Well yes we are brought up in a mental (or psychological) sense... this is what conditioning is. The point is to question that. Question it thoroughly. Question every kind of authority, every speaker, writer, teacher, influece. Question your own mind patterns and thoughts. Ask yourself... "Is it true?" "Does it make sense deep within?" "Does it resonate?". Keep questioning and watching. In questioning we become open to realization and insight comes in. And once there's insight conditioning drops off because we SEE, truly. What would motivate someone to question thus? Well... look around at the world. See the insanity. Ask yourself: does this make sense at all? Can it really be the way it is? Or is there another way of seeing? That's the key, being willing to see truly.

Most of us really don't know what is. What we know, or think we know, is really just a perception colored by our conditioning. We try to change the environment around us, and even ourselves, as a reaction to this perception. We're simply moving around the pieces of the illusion without any awareness of what we're doing, but believing wholeheartedly that we're actually doing something. We don't realize that the source of Life is within. We are the projector, yet we try to constantly tweak the image that is being projected.

And then maybe, as we look around and see the insanity (and perhaps after trying for a long time to change things, with futility as a result) we STOP the madness for a moment. In this moment of stillness we can observe things (thoughts, emotions, objects etc.) as they are, without this straining effort to escape from the present moment. When we're not trying to escape we open ourselves to receiving insight about the Truth of what is.

Insight will let us see things in a wholistic way, and will direct us accordingly. It's common to assume that acceptance means apathy and inaction. That's not what it means at all. Life is not static. But does it not make sense that the movement be experienced in a sane way?

Let's look a bit closer at this example of jealousy. So let's say we notice that there's jealousy there. What is the common reaction to this? We don't want to accept jealousy within us. It's not pretty. It's socially taboo, right? It feels uncomfortable, painful even. We want desperately to escape this feeling and condition. But we remain still, despite every initial urge to flee, or to project responsibility of it onto another (it's all your fault!, etc.). No, we hold it, we stay with it, we know it's our stuff and we don't flinch.

What happens? Well, perhaps we notice that here's this feeling, this emotion, and here I am watching it. Then a space around the feeling becomes evident. It starts to seem not as anxious. We notice where the feeling resides in the body and we watch that. Then it's like, the feeling isn't so overpowering any more. It doesn't completely rule us as it once did. This may take several times of experiencing it, each time gaining deeper awareness of what this is that we're experiencing. We can spend a lot of time projecting blame on to another person (she made me jealous, the bitch!, it's her fault!!). But then we're still stuck with our experience.

When freedom is desired... TRULY DESIRED... then we realize that we had the keys to our prison all along. So in observing what is, despite any initial discomfort, we begin to go deeper within, and the emotions are now experienced on the surface of our awareness, where they don't exert much influence. And we start receiving insights about life on a deeper level. Perhaps we start to see the deeper patterns of attachment that gave rise to jealousy in the first place. Perhaps we begin to see who we are in such a way that the whole concept of jealosy becomes meaningless. It's so easy to let something go when insight about it comes in, because then there's absolutely no effort in it. It's like outgrowing toys. Once something that was so precious and invoked so much pain at the thought of loss, now is... insignificant.

I understand. Thank you. Same here.

 

I could once again quote most of what you said and discuss it piece by piece, but that post...WOW! I'm in agreement with pretty much 100% of what you said...very interesting to see what just a bit of clarification can do, just goes to show how inefficient words and language really are. That's not to say I was ever really in "disagreement", just different thoughts according to what I interpreted based on what I read.

Absolutely! Man, that's possibly the "best" thing I've heard another person say on these forums. Very true, and very applicable to pretty much anyones life at some point or another. You've said "it" better than I ever could.

Initially, I suppose I just thought you were undermining the importance of thoughts....God I hate it when my words get misconstrued, but I fall victim to misinterpreting others words all to often as well...(this is a perfect example).

Thanks for the discussion...and the enlightenment.

Which makes me realize that this "enlightenment" we speak of is usually just a realization of something we already know. We gain that "insight" to fully comprehend that thought, which although it may have evolved (changed) a bit due to the new "insight", it was already there in the first place.

(In this case, the insight I received was initiated by an external force and in the form of clarification, thanks to you.)

 

Yeah, the entirety of what one sees can't be captured in words. And when talking about it we can express bits of it but then in a different conversation other bits surface. And they're all simply perspectives of the vision, not the meat of it, you know? Sometimes it's helpful to inquire together, when the mind is open.

Well let me share another bit. Thoughts in and of themselves are not important at all. They don't need to be changed, denied, abstained from, avoided, made significant, taken seriously, obsessed over, subjected to shoulds, or any of that. The only thing to do with thoughts is to NOTICE them and see if there's a "me" seeking to reinforce itself through them. To simply observe. That's it. We can recognize them for what they are... just thoughts. Or we can infer some kind of meaning or identity from them, which translates into the human condition of suffering, drama and conflict.

They're not mine or yours. They belong to the stream of conditioning... OR when seen truly, are utilized by the unconditioned awareness (or Life, or God, or Being, or whatever term we give to "it"). Without the constant gas we give them through identification and attachment, they lose momentum and largely dissipate. Whatever remains is only of practical value. None of it is in "our" control anyway. If we think we can control thoughts then we think control is available to us and that there is a "me" that has such choices and power, and that in and of itself is delusion and insanity. It may be a bit of paradox to say that on one hand we can't do a thing, but on the other hand we can observe. But who is observing? Awareness is observing.

You're welcome and thank you.

Well whatever we call it, the awareness settles in and we suddenly see something right before our eyes that we didn't see before. It does feel like a recognition of something that was always present. In fact it seems so obvious that it's amazing we didn't see it before. (Frankly we've all been duped. A major swindle of the mind. Smoke & mirrors. It's quite astounding really. LOL!)

It's all the same, me/you/he/she... it's just life. We are humanity, peeking out through many eyes. But not that even. We are Life, in the guise of humanity peeking out through many eyes. And there's nothing whatsoever personal going on at all.