No recession huh?

Acqua,

What part of there is no money in the treasury do you not understand???

No matter how you cook the books, the reality is that there is no fucking money in the treasury, otherwise, they wouldn't be in debt. This economy is built on a myth, an illusion, a grand illusion.

And idiots like George Bush and trolls like you ought to be the poster boys of those among us who like to spread lies, deceptions, mislead people, thereby perpetrating the illusion.

So, do us all a favor, put down your goddamn statistics, bang your head against your computer and wake up!

 

I have a solution if individual consumption is the only solution you Keynesians see as workable. How about we put a moratorium on debt repayment. Every citizen of the US can forget about paying any bank or plastic loans for six months. Wouldn't that lead to increased GDP through increased spending on consumables?

 

Growth in GDP don't mean shit!

GDP includes measuring economic activity, not necessarily wealth creation.

For example, breaking a window creates economic activity, since one has to buy a new window and have it installed. But did it add to the wealth of this society? No. It merely redistributes the wealth from one person to another.

That little economic activity is added to the GDP for the year, which means that if a lot of people broke their windows and replaced them, the government will report substantial economic "growth".

Again, perpetuating the "illusion".

 

Regulation of the oil industry would do a lot to stimulate the economy also. Put a lid on speculative valuation, and those in manufacturing and agriculture could better estimate their expenses and the consumer wouldn't be doing a balancing act with their budgets, wondering what's going up next.

 

well if alota people broke their windows and replaced them then the more people would be hired in the window making industry to help increase the supply of windows to meet the increased demand, which would result in more jobs, more incomes( they expand their factory to accomodate the extra demand, this creates new construction jobs, all the increased demand creates the need for more truckers and miners to get those materials and refiners to refine the extra material), and then these people would spend that money on things in the economy further expanding it in the way you just saw, this is economic activity, this also causes an increased demand for the currency of the country, increases its value(along with inflation once there isn't enough money to meet demand, then you increase the money supply to meet the demand for money)

 

I want my rebate check, when we getting those?

 

that is incorrect, but instead of actually having the intelligence to respond to my arguments some sorry excuses for moderators try to stop you from seeing the truth by deleting my posts, but it doesn't really matter

okay, the number of people buying windows goes up, therefore we see an increased demand for windows, companies in the window making industry hire more workers in order to compensate for the increased demand, they may also increase the size or number of their factories to increase supply to meet the new demand, this leads to more income for more works, lowers the unemployment rate and represents an increase in economic activity, also it is not limited to this, along with the increase in factories comes with the increase in manufacturing tools, truckers to ship the material, miners to make the material, ect, more computers are required, more technicians, along with this comes an increased demand for money, which will cause the value of the currency to increase, and possibly inflation may occur if the demand for the currency out paces its supply(you then increase the supply of money by lowering interest rates, this lowers the inflation rate while meeting demand,so you see an increase in the amount of windows people buy does have a chain reaction impact in on the economy

 

that is incorrect, but instead of actually having the intelligence to respond to my arguments some sorry excuses for moderators try to stop you from seeing the truth by deleting my posts, but it doesn't really matter



okay, the number of people buying windows goes up, therefore we see an increased demand for windows, companies in the window making industry hire more workers in order to compensate for the increased demand, they may also increase the size or number of their factories to increase supply to meet the new demand, this leads to more income for more works, lowers the unemployment rate and represents an increase in economic activity, also it is not limited to this, along with the increase in factories comes with the increase in manufacturing tools, truckers to ship the material, miners to make the material, ect, more computers are required, more technicians, along with this comes an increased demand for money, which will cause the value of the currency to increase, and possibly inflation may occur if the demand for the currency out paces its supply(you then increase the supply of money by lowering interest rates, this lowers the inflation rate while meeting demand,so you see an increase in the amount of windows people buy does have a chain reaction impact in on the economy

 

that is incorrect, but instead of actually having the intelligence to respond to my arguments some sorry excuses for moderators try to stop you from seeing the truth by deleting my posts, but it doesn't really matter



okay, the number of people buying windows goes up, therefore we see an increased demand for windows, companies in the window making industry hire more workers in order to compensate for the increased demand, they may also increase the size or number of their factories to increase supply to meet the new demand, this leads to more income for more works, lowers the unemployment rate and represents an increase in economic activity, also it is not limited to this, along with the increase in factories comes with the increase in manufacturing tools, truckers to ship the material, miners to make the material, ect, more computers are required, more technicians, along with this comes an increased demand for money, which will cause the value of the currency to increase, and possibly inflation may occur if the demand for the currency out paces its supply(you then increase the supply of money by lowering interest rates, this lowers the inflation rate while meeting demand,so you see an increase in the amount of windows people buy does have a chain reaction impact in on the economy

 

that is incorrect, but instead of actually having the intelligence to respond to my arguments some sorry excuses for moderators try to stop you from seeing the truth by deleting my posts, but it doesn't really matter



okay, the number of people buying windows goes up, therefore we see an increased demand for windows, companies in the window making industry hire more workers in order to compensate for the increased demand, they may also increase the size or number of their factories to increase supply to meet the new demand, this leads to more income for more works, lowers the unemployment rate and represents an increase in economic activity, also it is not limited to this, along with the increase in factories comes with the increase in manufacturing tools, truckers to ship the material, miners to make the material, ect, more computers are required, more technicians, along with this comes an increased demand for money, which will cause the value of the currency to increase, and possibly inflation may occur if the demand for the currency out paces its supply(you then increase the supply of money by lowering interest rates, this lowers the inflation rate while meeting demand,so you see an increase in the amount of windows people buy does have a chain reaction impact in on the economy

 

All these is not gonna happen, if one does not have the capital.
The way it's going, we don't have the money. We need to borrow money, because we are spending more than we are making.

Again, I repeat, which part of "there is no money in the treasury" don't you understand.

Do you have a learning disability?

 

you are confusing the national debt with personal debt again, and if you look at my other post you will see that even during this economic downturn, real wages have only decreased 0.28% during the last year (for hourly workers in all sectors), however, the overnight interest rate is half of what it was almost a year ago, so people are paying less on their credit card bills/mortgages, thereby freeing up more disposable income, also, people are being given $600-1200 of disposable income, and once the chain of prosperity is started it usually goes on for a while, so think of it as everyone spending the $600 they get on american made windows and by your way of thinking, there is no money in any nation's treasury, every nation has a national debt, and you don't really seem to realize what a national debt is, and the borrowing of money actually increases the value of the dollar, and with interest rates pretty low most people barely have to pay anything back, the economic return we can get from a loan will be much more than the interest rate on the loan

 

you are confusing the national debt with personal debt again, and if you look at my other post you will see that even during this economic downturn, real wages have only decreased 0.28% during the last year (for hourly workers in all sectors), however, the overnight interest rate is half of what it was almost a year ago, so people are paying less on their credit card bills/mortgages, thereby freeing up more disposable income, also, people are being given $600-1200 of disposable income, and once the chain of prosperity is started it usually goes on for a while, so think of it as everyone spending the $600 they get on american made windows and by your way of thinking, there is no money in any nation's treasury, every nation has a national debt, and you don't really seem to realize what a national debt is

 

Why do you keep saying that? I get the impression that you don't completely grasp the topic.

 

acga5, you don't seem to want to address my questions about what is observable in the world outside or maybe your answers were deleted. Anyway, this is up your alley, historically what has been the lowest interest rate and how do they compare with today’s interest rates.

 

you are confusing the national debt with personal debt again, and if you look at my other post you will see that even during this economic downturn, real wages have only decreased 0.28% during the last year (for hourly workers in all sectors), however, the overnight interest rate is half of what it was almost a year ago, so people are paying less on their credit card bills/mortgages, thereby freeing up more disposable income, also, people are being given $600-1200 of disposable income, and once the chain of prosperity is started it usually goes on for a while, so think of it as everyone spending the $600 they get on american made windows and by your way of thinking, there is no money in any nation's treasury, every nation has a national debt, and you don't really seem to realize what a national debt is

mod is really showing his respect for free speech by deleting my posts for no reason, really sad how he can't take it when someone has an opposing view lol

 

well right now interest rates are lower than they've ever been since 2004, and its just your point of view about the observable world, because for people who lost their jobs or their homes, well it was because the housing bubble burst and those who were greedy and paid nothing down and took out huge loans paid for it bigtime, most of these people already had shakey credit, but if you look at the overall trend in the economy for hourly workers, even during this economic downturn real wages have only decreased by 0.28%

this is from another thread

This is comparing prices from February 08 and 07,
CPI for feb 07 was 203.499, CPI for feb 08 was 211.693, based on the base year of 1982 which represents the number 100

now, CPI year2-cpiyear1/cpi year 2 x100=inflation rate, 211.693-203.499=8.194/211.693=0.0387x100=3.8706% increase in the price of all goods INCLUDING energy and food

NOW, since you obviously think these stats are false, please look up their charts, and point out which stats are cooked(since ALL of the data is free for the public to analyze), and or provide your own survey and data s

where is bob chapman's data, I didn't know he had supernatural powers and the inflation rate just popped into his head...

ALSO, people are complaining about lower wages(but I think thats just because they've been fed the whole doom and gloom scenario)

average wages for hourly workers in feb 07 was(this includes ALL sectors) $17.20 a hour

average wage for hourly workers(again including all sectors) in feb 08 was $17.84

17.2/17.84=96.41%= 3.59% increase in the average hourly wage of american workers in all sectors

so we have an average increase in pay of about 3.59%(these are numbers i calculated off their charts not numbers that were fed to me) and an average rise in prices INCLUDING energy and food of 3.8706%.

3.8706-3.59=0.2806%

so real wages have decreased by about 0.2806% for the average middle class worker( I hope we can agree that hourly workers aren't upper class)
when comparing feb 07 and feb 08

all it takes is a little bit of restraint...i know most middle class people do indulge on alota material things they don't need, and I'm sure they could reduce their spending by 0.2806%, also this is just wages vs the cost of living, doesn't take into account the fact that many of their debts are being lowered thanks to lower interest rates and they are getting 600-1200$ cash to help

 

Yes that’s true, it is just my point of view. But that begs the question why don’t your numbers account for it? In my 60 years I have never seen so many people on the street begging and that’s going from never seeing it to seeing once in awhile to seeing it on almost every street corner and sometimes a corner has two or more. If unemployment is so low where did these people suddenly come from? Are you saying that they were always there but I just didn’t see them till the last three years? Seems doubtful.

I don’t think I ever said that I thought your stats are false but do wonder why your stats seem to paint such a rosy picture when just looking around seems to say something different. I mean if a weather man tell me it’s going to be a beautiful day not a cloud in the sky and shows me all the maps with the highs and lows and why it’s going to be such a beautiful day and then I go outside and it’s raining. Guess who I’m going to believe?

Reduce spending? I thought you said if they wanted to help the economy they had to increase spending.
Lowering interest rates does not decrease debt it may decrease interest payments but does not decrease the debt and seeing as many are only paying the minimum even with lowered interest rates they are still not covering the interest.
As for the $600 if my figuring is correct, that just covers the 0.2806% less they’re making.

 

well hourly workers on average are making 3.5% more, just when compared with inflation their wage increases are not catching up with it, well i was saying that people are complaining about how bad it is out there, but I'm sure people could save that survive with 0.28%, they could cut back on foreign cars or something lol, and remember this is an average for the entire hourly job market, maybe some people in construction are down 1-5% or something like that in real wages but someone in another sector is up 5% so it doesn't really paint an accurate picture for the individual, just an average for the economy, well what is the major sector that drives your areas economy? then i could see how bad you area specifically is doing compared to the rest of the country, and what city/area are you in

maybe your city relies more on some type of labor that has been hit harder than other sectors and thats why it seems so bad for you guys, also, it does lower the amount of real debt someone has... if someone has a loan for 400,000 and they have to pay a certain interest rate they will end up actually owing say 600000 by the time they will have finished so they have 600000 of real debt on the loan, but if interest rates were lower on the loan they might have 550000 on the loan instead(and these are assuming all other things remain the same(like inflation))

 

acga5, let’s take a simple look at how stats can be true but not give an accurate picture of real life. “let’s take a 100 people. 20 of them make $20 an hour, 20 make $15 an hour, 20 make $10 an hour and 20 make $5 an hour. The average wage is $10 an hour. Now there’s an economic slow down, seeing as the high dollar earners have seniority, the $5 hour workers are laid off. That now means that the average wage is $11.25 an hour. Figuring in a modest inflation let’s say that they are only making 0.28% less on average than they were before, so what’s the problem? Let them tighten their belt a little and everything is fine. Well the problem is the 20 people that fell though the cracks in your stats and are now standing on the streets begging for money!

Also your info about debt is only true if you can get someone to refinance your mortgage at the new interest rates something they might be reluctant to do if your house has dropped in value like most houses have. But i was talking about credit card debt which does not fit into what you were talking about.

Also you keep saying they could cut back, but you haven’t answered my question: Reduce spending? I thought you said if they wanted to help the economy they had to increase spending.