Obama,mountaintop removal and the hypocrisy of his green campaign.

well actually the scumbag we have in office is only masquerading as mr green jeans as has been proven already by his policies.

obviously he still has some fooled though.

 

Mountaintop removal damage 'irreversible,' U.S. Senate hears

NASA's James Hansen, Civil Disobedience and Mountaintop Removal Mining

 

if McCain was in there we would have a Indian Casino on every mountaintop instead

 

all well and fine as long as it's out west some where

 

its not about what party or where it is,they are all the same.
to me its about the fact that we ARE keepers and caretakers of mother earth.

the approvals in west virginia are what was brought to my attention. in truth i believe there were 42 out of 46 approved nationwide. if you would like i can dig deeper into all of them.as i have already said, it doesnt matter if its worthless desert land in the middle of nowhere,ITS WRONG!


these people claim to want us as a species to turn over a new leaf and put our focus on healing mother earth yet they rape her and scar her for eternity while preaching to us about being green.

as one who has spent his entire adult life walking softly on the earth and working towards a 100% sustainable lifestyle,it makes me sick.

 

tell me about it.. I haven't had a car in years .. I ride a bicycle

 

Interesting links. I didn't know about the relationship between flooding and mountaintop removal because it was not being done much when I changed jobs and stopped going into that area. It seems that the real problem is the amount of excess rock that has to be removed and dumped elsewhere.

Yeah, Coal River Mountain is a nice one. And blasting away historic Blair Mountain was an idea doomed to failure from day one. Both situations are far different from a typical nameless mountain that you might find in McDowell or Wyoming County, with three levels of strip scars across its face and giant slate dumps on both ends, and a creek below it where every house still dumps raw sewage. To me, a place like that has already been lost.

I'm not a fan of mountaintop wind turbines at all. Visually, I find them to be just as unnatural as a strip scar. I have seen wind farms in California. I find them acceptable only because they run along relatively unimportant ridges that are dominated by much larger mountains nearby.

I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do. I just don't think that blanket policies imposed from Washington are the answer. I believe that you will have a tougher time getting people in DC to care about Blair Mountain than you would in Charleston. Having important decisions made about WV by people who don't live there has been an ongoing ecologic disaster for over 100 years. If you don't trust Obama, you shouldn't expect his administration to do any better than the previous ones. The people of WV can and should hold Charleston accountable.

Instead of simplistic anti-coal policies, I would rather see a requirement for more realistic environmental impact studies done for all mining activities. An underground mine with a large slate dump near a state park can be worse in some cases than flattening a small mountain that can't be seen from a public road. If they are pressured to do so, the coal companies can find ways to reduce the real impact of all kinds of mining activities. They once complained about safety regulations, but they learned to live with them, and fatal accidents declined greatly in the 1930's and 40's.

One of your links went to a study using computer modeling where one dump was shown to increase storm runoff by 3%, and another by 13%. Those are the kind of studies that should be done before a permit is issued to begin mining operations. The 13% increase should not have been allowed, no matter what mining method was to be used.

 

The nationwide demand for coal is going to drop greatly as a result of new environmental policies, but the transition period is going to be infuriatingly slow. Power companies will be under pressure to go green, but it obviously can't happen overnight. There are thousands of coal-fired plants to be phased out.

We will always need some WV coal for making steel. Its high-grade coal that is suitable for baking into coke is not easy to find, and I'm not aware of anything else you can substitute in the steelmaking process.

 

Does that matter? Does that make it any less destructive?

And were you coal company employee? You sound like one. And you are right, it is nothing like any other part of America, which is a GOOD thing, and it should remain that way.

Why would any outsiders want to visit a land destroyed by the coal companies?

And the rest of your statement is just defeating your argument, because it is true..

I live in Calhoun, the poorest county in WV. We have oil and gas, not coal. I've lived in different parts of WV for 35 years, and yes, the culture and mindset of West Virginians is different than anywhere else. They are EXTREMELY PROUD of who they are and how they live. "Quality of life" in this case is a matter of opinion.

All of them. And those that have already been destroyed WERE, before the coal companies got their greedy hands on them.

Yes, I know, it's SUPPOSED to be that way. Has been since the world began. Do you suppose God got it wrong? How awful for the terrain to be so INCONVENIENT for those hardy people who CHOSE to live there...

Dude, ya don't move to the country if ya want what's in the city. You don't live in the mountains without EXPECTING to drive a long hard road to the store. If you do, you are a fool. The water WAS good until the coal companies polluted it. The schools WERE good until consolidation.

Their "situation" of living there is mostly CHOSEN by hardy individuals who do NOT want interfered with by any high falutin' politicians. The problem has always been the coal companies and the government.

We don't??? Who do you work for?

This is all B.S. Mountaintop removal has ELIMINATED about 10,000 jobs for miners. There are way more people looking for jobs than there are jobs. The entire state is like that.

Yes, and those people are trapped. Their land is worth nothing so they can't sell it, because of King Coal. Their water is unusable, they can no longer fish because the waterways are polluted. They are constantly fed the idea that they must LIVE DOWN their hillbilly heritage they are so proud of and be like everyone else, and told that if mountaintop removal is banned there will be NO JOBS for them, so they won't be able to be like everybody else.... And some of them have lived that lifestyle for so long they actually believe it.
And some have enough courage to stand up to the coal companies and try desperately to hang on to their land that has been in their families for generations. Not the kind of thing people would do who were disenchanted with the lack of flat land.

Boy are you missing the point. And ignoring the realities. This just means you acknowledge that coal mining causes dangerous flooding and ruins the land.

 

But, but ,but, you seemed to think that a lot of the mountains in coal country are unimportant. So why would wind turbines be a bad thing there??? Wind turbines eventually wear out, and can be torn down. Mountain still there. Funny thing.

Do you work for a coal company? You speak like one of their "spokespeople". And what about the BLANKENSHIP thing? We don't even know how many people he may have paid off, how many illegal things he may have done, strings he has pulled. He's running a damn big show to be no better than a common criminal...

 

No, I was not.

You seem to be opposed to ALL coal mining. Without mining or buildable land, what do you propose that people do for a living in southern WV? And where would America get high-grade coal for making steel?

When I first started having business dealings there, I had a very hard-core environmentalist perspective. The local people straightened me out right away. They said that kind of extremist bullshit was for spoiled, rich flatlanders who had never had to worry about where their next meal was coming from or how they could afford medicine for the baby. Mountain scenery, hunting, and fishing were luxuries that people living in poverty couldn't afford to worry about. I couldn't argue against those points. I learned to shut the hell up and listen for a while.

You make it sound as if nobody I met in WV knew anything about the place or had true WV values. Most of them were at least third generation coal country residents, mostly sons and daughters of miners and railroad people. A few were transplants from Virginia and western Pennsylvania.

The kids didn't choose where to live. And when their high school builds a nice, high quality baseball diamond and a soccer field inside an old strip mine, I doubt if any of them wishes that somebody would convert it back to a 45-degree slope. They're kids. They want to play ball.

I could show you two coal camps in Mercer County (off highway 10) that were abandoned years ago, when the local mines were mined out. The houses rotted down, and now only the foundations remain. Every week, year after year, people move from southern WV to NC, get jobs, and rent houses until they can afford to buy. They work hard and their bosses like them. They are good people. I like the ones that I know. They miss WV, but they know they have to go where the jobs are. They drive back to Monroe County for hunting and fishing.

I don't really care if they build turbines there or not. I won't be seeing them. I just don't think they look right on top of a mountain. That's all.

WV has too many mountains for all of them to be important. It has mountains that are not seen by a single living human on a typical day. Most people have no idea there could be that many mountains in one place. Even in the height of tourist season, I can take my Jeep out on Forest Service roads in Pocahontas, Randolph, or Greenbrier County and drive for two hours without seeing another human. Snowshoe doesn't even open some of their hotels in the summer because they can't fill the rooms at any price. Mountain wilderness overcrowding? It isn't happening in WV.

I can't comment on him specifically because I know nothing about him. I suspect he is pretty much a typical coal mine owner. They have been pulling the same shit for at least three generations. At least you know what to expect from them. They are the reason that the industry will always have to be heavily regulated.

This whole situation is likely to improve greatly in the long-term future. There are much thicker, rich coal seams under southwestern WV that are too deep to be economically mined now. Down there is where we will be mining a hundred years from now. There is no way to keep the water and methane gas pumped out, so that mining work will be done by underwater robots. No excess rock will have to be taken out except for vertical shafts. Unfortunately, it may not happen in our lifetime.

 

nope. Opposed to mountaintop removal and many of the corrupt and polluting practices used in the coal mining industry as a whole. Of course there is a place for coal. On a limited basis and not as a way for some greedy criminals to make lots of money. What do you think the original settlers did "for a living"? After all, this is land that was as wild an primitive as it gets for eons. What do you suppose brought the original West Virginians to those mountains BEFORE coal mining? Why do you suppose they stay, considering the circumstances?

Those are the patent responses that we often hear from people who have been fed the lies of King Coal and the politicians, many of whom are "undereducated" (trying not to use terms like illiterate hillbilly). And I hate to say it, but with so many generations of poverty, bad diets and polluted water etc., many of those folks are not the sharpest....

The mountain scenery, hunting, fishing, and everything that goes with it.... Sort of like complaining you are starving while there is an entire garden growing in your back yard going to ruin, don't you think?

Just proves my point about generations of poverty, etc...

Like most kids, I'm sure they don't give much thought to such things. And like most kids, I assume that when they are no longer kids, if they choose, they will leave.

This is nothing new. 45 years ago people were leaving WV in droves for jobs in Ohio. The family farms were abandoned, many of them as if someone had tossed a few clothes in a suitcase, turned the stock loose, and just left everything else behind. Most folks STILL hang on to those old home places, even tho the houses are long gone and the land is grown up to briers. That's because they MISS living here. That has not changed at all, and it's not just a coal related thing. This state is a certain way, and no amount of "shoulds" can change that. This land was not made just for some human's enjoyment or pleasure. It's real special in that way, and I figure in the not too distant future, this country will be so fucked up that a small piece of paradise like what might be left in WV after the energy folks get done with it will be a priceless commodity, INTACT.

You think beheaded mountains "look right"?

And we all know if it's not important to a HUMAN then it's not important, right? Because it's all about humans and their desires and wants? Right?
I don't think so. You have no way of knowing just how important those mountains could be to the greater scheme of things.



:toetap05:

 

so because no one can see it, it doesnt matter? nice..

i cant help but think thats how a lot of child molesters and rapists feel about their acts.out of sight out of mind.

i guess the mountains deserve it for having all that coal buried underneath too huh??

 

....Just like the 765 kv power line they want to string across the state, thru this county, so they can blast more coal, to run more power plants, to send more power to out of state cities, to charge more for the electricity...... But the power line is supposed to "follow an existing route" which runs thru a great deal of wild area, and therefore they figure nobody will complain - outta sight, outta mind. They COUNT on people being of the type that won't question it too much. Like those sons of sons of coal miners, still living in the raped and pillaged areas of the state.

"Always been this-a-way, and that's just the way it is. Grampa said if they shut down the coal mines we won't have food on the table...." They repeat what they have heard for generations. They are used to complaining about being poor and feeling like there is nothing else. They've been hearing it their whole lives. But damn, there's SOME reason why their ancestors decided to settle there.... Too bad they can't figure out what it is.... No different here. This area is like one great big enormous state park, the beauty, the peace and quiet, the wildlife, the old time feel, the heritage... But folks will look at me and say with a straight face "why would anyone want to come here? There is nothing here." It's really sad. Tourism could make a really positive difference to so many areas in WV, but instead a lot of the locals have given up, toss their trash on the roadsides, drink and do meth, let the old home place fall down and put in a doublewide.
The energy giants pretty much own the state, and the money makes a sucking sound as it goes down the drain into the pockets of millionaires. Great stuff.

 

Not many white people lived in the southern coalfields before coal was discovered. A few did some small-scale hunting, trapping, and trading with the Indians. They couldn't farm or raise much livestock because the land wasn't suitable. They tried logging, but it was hard to get the timber out.

The roadside historical markers tell a grim tale of early life there. The founder of Welch, for example, was slaughtered by the Indians, along with his entire family. Yes, I know there are two sides to every story. There is no telling what the white settlers had recently done to the Indians to piss them off. The historical markers never tell you that part.

Some of the early miners were immigrants who were lured in and trapped by unethical schemes by coal companies. They signed up for free passage to this country in exchange for a deal that allowed them to work off a certain dollar amount of debt before they could quit their new jobs. Then they got over here and found out how company towns and company stores worked, and quickly realized that they would never be able to get out of debt to the company. This made them virtual slaves for life.

More than 300 of these unfortunate individuals died in a mine explosion and collapse just a few miles west of Fairmont (which lost part of its downtown to an unrelated tunnel collapse), more than 100 years ago. Most were Russians who did not speak English. It is still America's greatest mining disaster. I can only hope that the hottest parts of hell are reserved for those who treat innocent people this way.

Wow. I can't believe you said that. No comment on that issue.
:leaving:

No. I never implied anything of the sort. Strip scars don't look normal or natural either, but they are EVERYWHERE in that region. They look especially hideous in winter.

While the HF server was down, I went into Google Maps to look for mountaintop mines and other open pit mines. It really is getting out of hand in places, with clusters of open mines that can easily be seen from outer space. I noticed that the worst concentration appeared to be just north of Hazard, Kentucky.

You are REALLY tempting me to regress into old jokes about mountain animals with two short legs and two long ones. I'll resist it for now.

But seriously, it is the fish that are getting the worst of it now. Bears, deer, etc. don't prefer steep slopes. They often end up in such places from trying to get away from humans. North Carolina has more bears living around our coastal swamps than we have in our mountains.

The timber will eventually come back in the abandoned strip mines. The small mammals will return with the forest. The fish are out of luck.

I have been getting that reaction for years whenever I say positive things to NC natives about the eastern side of WV. All the way from Monroe County and the New River Gorge to Canaan Valley and Harpers Ferry, it is one of eastern America's least known natural treasures. I never miss a chance to put in a plug for it.


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