Official Bible Interpretation Thread

Falling from cliffs is not the cause of death, cancer is not the cause of death, old age is not the cause of death. do you know any one who does not die?

No, the children of god remain as god created them. I am not confused about what it is to be a creation of god. What I'm saying is sin is an error in perception, not a violation against god. The power of god cannot be usurped, god is not mocked. However, egotistical men will say that god feels this way or that way about a particular issue. God is not the author of disputes, does not mediate disputes, does not pick sides because there is no other side.

Egotistical men will give anthropomorphic characteristics to allegorical representations of the human psyche.

Yes, we were discussing the fact that god does not create the perishable.

Fruit is for eating and propagation. We must defend our right to condemn in order to justify our unwillingness to forgive.

 

Like you say, it is a parable, a story that never happened to teach a lesson about something not readily understood by those listening.

Do you believe that this parable was meant by Jesus to teach a lesson about the condition of the dead, especially one that contradicts what the Bible already has said about the condition of the dead?

Do you also believe that with this parable Jesus was teaching that all one needs to get into "heaven" was to be materially poor and on the other hand all it takes to get into "hell" is to be materially rich?

Do you think that if there was such a place a "hell", that the people in heaven would want to be able to see and hear the "eternal punishment" taking place there? That would not be paradise to me.

 

Luke 16:19-31

 

Prove it, don't just run your mouth.

And you don't know what you don't know.
Isn't that what I said; "there is no relationship between dreaming and hypnosis"
You might at least try to look like you are talking about the same thread of conversation.[/QUOTE]
You have a reading comprehension problem. the similarity between hypnosis and dreaming is the rapt attention on something other than the present moment.

If I make or made self contradictory statements they either need to be amended or discounted that is perfectly reasonable to me. I certainly challenge or disregard any self contradictory statement anyone makes. If I make a self contradictory statement, point it out, but to say, "that is contradictory", without providing substantiation is not enough.

 

Waterbrother, what does F-I.W. in your sig mean?

 

That's the nastiest thing you've said in my experience of you. And thank you for it. Your seemingly infinite patience was beginning to make me feel more shame than I earn from my own temper.

 

Yeah, just looking for some substance. You really think it's nasty huh, I'm impressed. I could have said simply where is your evidence to which the response would be something like it's in the words you said or I've already done so many times over etc... It is not my desire to be deceived or to deceive. If I have made an error I would like to know about it. Just to proclaim "you are wrong", with no remedy is not helpful. So I have to take the time to ask the question over again, hopefully in a contrite enough manner that he responds in a meaningful way.

I am no measure of perfection worldsofdarkblue, but I am as god created me. Sometimes I find myself swatting at mosquitoes. There are times also when we misspeak and those things are easily amended if all parties are looking for communication, but if we are not looking for communication those things can be used to beat each other with. I challenge statements that are inconsistent within themselves, that are false by definition, or that are not consistent with ordinarily observable phenomena.

For all the tedium involved for me in speaking with waterbrother, I am still grateful for his participation.

 

God loved them and continues to love them.

We have the choice how to respond to God's love while alive. whn we reject that we are consumed by it. All of our actions begin to flow into things that are contrary to God. This is one of the major reasons for Confession--to set teh straight path again after grave sins.

 

I have explained this in detail in discussion with D.Zep, but I wil reitterate.

I agre that when we die our bodies become unconcious things awaiting glorification. What I also uphold is the belief that our person also consists of an immaterial Soul that continues to exist post-mortem. This Soul is not unconcious. This Soul is also intimately tied to what we were when we were alive.

No

I never said nor implied this. In fact, I even asked what Watchtower people be;lief about Abrahma's Bosom for more clarification.

I do know there is a Hell.
I never said this was Hell.
I never said the other was in Heaven.
Lazarus does not see the Rich Man anyways, it is all done through Abraham.


Can you answer my question: What is Abraham's Bosom?

 

If you want to look it up it is found at 1 Samuel 28:4-25.

Looking at the account we see that Saul himself did not see Samuel but only assumed from the description given by the spirit medium that she saw Samuel. Saul desperately wanted to believe that it was Samuel and so let himself be deceived. I would say that the voice that pretended to be that of Samuel was that of an impostor. I would say that because what was said was inaccurate seeing as Saul committed suicide and was not killed by the Philistines and also the prediction suggested that all Saul’s sons would die with him but his son Ish-bosheth survived him. And that is not even taking into consideration the Scriptures we have been talking about, like (Ecclesiastes 9:10) All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in She′ol, the place to which you are going.

Seeing as Jesus himself was not in paradise that very day, I would say that what Jesus was saying to the man was; that today I tell you that some day in the future you will be with me in Paradise. “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” not “Truly I tell you, today You will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)

 

Continues to love them in eternal damnation?!

 

This deliemmna raises the question: Which is worse--the dammned being in Hell or the damnned in the presence of God?

I believe that the damnned in the presence of God would be worse. Imagine for eternity to be in the overwhelming presence of the one you hate.

As the Church both Eastern and Western teaches, there is no place where God is not, and God's love is for all human beings, including sinners. Hell is described as self-exclusion from communion with that universal love, as cutting oneself off from love, or but as an enemy of God. Only of a human heart that excludes God can it be said that, in a sense, God is not there.

We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell." CCC 1033

 

If hell is self-exclusion, how is it at all 'eternal'?

 

Time ends

 

Listen, if I were hanging on the cross I wouldn't waste my breath to declare the obvious. We know he is saying it on this day, he is not speaking on some other day, that is obvious.

 

And?

I have ruled out hell. What I haven't been able to rule out is death. If you can help me do this we can have Heaven.

Is this the wrong thread?! lol

 

I was answering your question, how can self exclusion be eternal.

Time ends, we run out of time in this system of things to make a different choice. We have a thread of consciousness that only emerges in resonance to certain frequencies, i.e., our solar system. It is possible, because of laws of probability, that we may become lost in space.

 

The danger of ending in self-exclusion is very real, I'm sure though that you can appreciate how I am loathe to let it be called 'hell', ---why hurt people while we travel?

 

Yes, I have expressed my consternation at an archaic vernacular that scares people and offends common sense.

The lake of fire is the sun or a similar cosmic entity incinerating the earth and subsequently with no solar system we end up in the "outer darkness".
Can you imagine trying to explain this level of subtlety in Jesus time.
For instance, what the hell is a solar system to an agrarian jew in the first century? What the hell is consciousness, what the hell is energy, on and on.

 

If we ourselves can end time (in mind) before letting ourselves end by it, we can finally love 'being' lost in space! Space all our own.

I cannot envision the earth in all of our bliss! Not alone! I want it!

What of our own personal lifetimes? Will we have to go under? I am brave enough to merge.