Our physical body...

And it's idiotic to say so but then that has never stopped you before.

Never said there would be.

No one is forcing you to conclude anything, let alone something so ludicrous.

There nothing wrong with sex in itself, it was given to mankind for their enjoyment and benefit but like most gifts that God has given us it can be misused.

 

As does anyone.

What part of you trusts or mistrusts the heart?

What is your basis for claiming that the physical body is to last forever? According to Romans, for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to god; it does not submit to gods law; indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please god.

So they are not in fact sinful being from god. We have no "sinful nature" and we cannot turn what is created by god into something less. To believe so is nothing but arrogance.

 

OWB:

You said Adam and Eve disconnected everyone from God. So by everyone you meant Adam and Eve?

Christianity, fundamentally, is to view the world back to front. To see procreation, and birth itself as disconnection.


thedope to OWB:

Death, though I wouldn't be surprised if he says "Gods will" lol

My own claim on the flesh is love. Love that embraces change, that knows no other relation to change than embrace! : D

 

What did I miss? I was floored with gratitude and my thought was if I had never had a body I wouldn't have missed a thing. An out of body experience, albeit from the perspective of having a body, being totally dissociated from physical sensation and able to observe my body as from outside of it. My self so much more than a distinction or repute in a tiny corner of the cosmos.

While I could never replace the experience of body animated, the experience of body animated is not essentially relevant to the creativity of mind. That is animus, mind, animates animal. I have a respect for the miracle of our biology and as a device is well suited to our function here. However, a space suit is a shabby home in the long run.

Perhaps I should ask what flesh? Your particular flesh? Life as flesh? Flesh as change? Do you think flesh has permanence?

 

thedope:

Then you weren't being grateful enough for your body?! I don't know, what did you miss?!

So still an inter body experience.

But animus animating animal makes it essentially relevant.

Whose? We never had to learn how to breathe.

Life, as body, as mind, as the distinction being unimportant in the 'long run', whatever that is!

We seek our height, in that alone is our joy in 'permanency'.

 

Since the scripture you are questioning was written under inspiration, why don't you ask the "Holy Spirit"?

There was no reason to die other than the eating of the tree and so if Adam and Eve had not eaten they would have lived forever right here on earth, seeing as there was no provision for them to do anything else.

Please cite such scriptures so they can be looked up and verified.

As I said they are not sinful in of themselves, but they can be misused.

No "sinful nature"? So you keep saying in direct contradiction to what the Scriptures say.

What is true arrogance is your constant disagreement with God's word.

 

So by everyone, I meant all their descendants as well.

No, procreation, and birth are not a disconnection but then again they don't reconnect us to God either.

 

No kidding.

 

Why would I kid you?

 

The reason I ask you is because you quote the scripture to make your point whatever it may be. Since it is a point you are making I would assume that you have some experience that points you in that direction. So I ask you, if you identify with this scripture, what part of you determines whether your own heart is trustworthy or not?

The scriptural basis for asking the question, of you is, the entire twelfth chapter of 1st corinthians.

Is the garden here on earth, if not what happened to it?

I did. You may look it up if you need to look it up for verification, in Romans.

Again you have not shown me where I am in contradiction.

And further arrogant in the belief that you are the only one who decides what gods word is!

 

Your spirit buddy doesn't know the answer I see.

How, in any way, is the twelfth chapter of 1st Corinthians a scriptural basis for asking the question of me?

What garden is that? The garden of Eden? No it is not, it was destroyed in the Flood.

No, you didn't cite or quote anything, as usual you paraphrased, adding your own twist and instead of continuing to obfuscate the matter, why don't just give the book, chapter and verse so it can be looked up.

I have already shown you hundreds of times and still you say this as if I have never done so.

Okay.
If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.(1 John 1:8)(Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Ezekiel 18:4; Ecclesiastes 7:20)

Still trying to sell this lie, looks like the truth is not in you.

 

The light in you is darkness, your vision is poor.

In every way. You have a particular spiritual gift, a particular kind of understanding that belongs to the whole body. You should read that chapter some time and perhaps you may regard what I say in a different light. That is of course provided you understand the meanings in chapter twelve.

Yes the garden of eden. Where does it say the garden of eden was destroyed by the flood?

Yes, the quote is verbatum from romans. I did not note chapter or verse when I quoted it so I cannot pull that information out of the air. Like I said, if you need to look to familiarize yourself with the quote, then do so. The quote is in the book of romans.

Again, the thing you are saying is not contradictory to what I am saying. I say we have no sinful nature. We sin, we have sinned. That we miss the sign of god causes us to react to the world in unhelpful ways. that we miss the sign of god does not make us unworthy as children of god, it means only that we don't know what we do. That all have sinned does not make us sinful in nature. All men sinned because they were taught sin from the beginning, not because of a sinful nature. My mother conceived me in sin but god created me good.

If we are born again in christ then sin is no longer in us.

 

I see well enough to know that your spirit buddy is not the Holy Spirit, something you are unable to see.

In every way? Thanks once again for a totally meaningless answer.

As for reading the chapter you suggest I have read the entire Bible several times, which would include that chapter but I also reread it when you mentioned it. and no, I don't have any clue what you get from it, since ofttimes what you get from the scriptures has nothing to do with what was actually said.

Well, since the whole surface of the Earth was under water for a year, most people would assume the Garden of Eden would have been destroyed at that time but then maybe you can tell us where you think it is.

Why don't you ask your spirit buddy, he should know.

But since others might want to look at it. I'll tell them.
You said; "for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to god; it does not submit to gods law; indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please god,"
And this is as close as I can come to what you said, it's not verbatim but it is as close as I can find.
Romans 8:7,8 English Standard Version (©2001)
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I showed you what the Bible says on the matter, now if you would be so kind as to show me where the Bible says we were taught sin.

Paul was "born again", yet he describes sin still warring within him. (Romans 7:13-25)

 

OWB:

No, you didn't point out the way to 'reconnection', only blamed Adam and Eve for your disconnection. As the tale goes, Adam and Eve didn't even disconnect themselves from God in their disobedience, let alone everyone else! Your belief that 'sin' is inborn, inherited, is unnatural.

You say by 'everyone' you mean every descendant of Adam and Eve. So did your own parents disconnect you from 'God' OWB? Does the notion of collective guilt really make you feel at ease?


thedope:

I do not understand this. I don't mean your being good.

I don't understand this either, when sin isn't in us. When on earth did sickness find relief in 'salvation'? The answer is the advent of christianity.

OWB believes the murder of Jesus was necessary, and not finding 'proof' of his "ransom-sacrifice" in the bible, finds it in the 'fact' that he was murdered! Blood is not understood as spirit, as life, by the cursers of life, but payment!

My curse upon organized murder is from my heart before I know it!

 

I didn't say anything about Jesus' ransom sacrifice, imagine that.

What tale? Grimm's fairy tales? But if you are talking about the what the Bible says about Adam and Eve, then yes they did disconnect themselves and mankind from God.

It is just Biblical.

What in the world are you talking about? At least try to listen to what is said to you.

OWB believes the the ransom sacrifice was necessary and that the Bible says plenty about Jesus ransom sacrifice.

 

OWB:

Yes, imagine.

The tale of genesis. "Yes they did" And that's that?! lol Read it again!

What outside of the bible supports it?

I'm talking about no-one having disconnected us from god.

You don't like the way I put your belief OWB? And yet you don't deny it. Tell me, was his torture necessary also?

 

That's the point, you have to imagine because you don't listen to what is said. If you listened, you would know that I have repeatedly pointed out Jesus' ransom sacrifice is the way to "reconnect to God".

I don't have to "read it again", I've probably read it many more times than you and will read it again many times but not because you don't know what it's talking about.

What outside the Bible doesn't support it? Humans are not perfect and capable of great evil, where do you suppose that comes from, human nature?

I know what you are talking about but in a Christian forum that is suppose to be for Christians to talk about Christianity, what you are putting forth is not a Christian concept.

Well if it as what I believed, I wouldn't mind but it's just not.

Okay, it's not what I believe.

No, he only had to die, all the extra was probably Satan's idea.

 

My mother conceived me in sin is a quote from the bible. God created me good is also a quote from the bible. Both quotes can be understood in many ways.

To me, the first quote gains substance from the story my mother herself tells about why she conceived to have children, of which I am one of many, and that was for the perception of lack. To fill a void within herself. However, such has not been the case for her and she continued to want for more, children, into an advanced age.

Many children are born into this world on this impulse of a perception of lack when there is indeed no lack or shortage. There is no lack or shortage of individuals in this world and that distortion is cause for a population grown so large that it pollutes the earth wherever concentrated.

Christ teaching is relief from the mundane hardness of the organizing principles of our "civilization". Come unto me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.

It is not a fact of life that our carefree moments should seem so few and forever distant but simply that we had not learned to be free with our care, only to care "more or less". We worry hard for things that need not be worried over and others take advantage of that fear.

Do not worry for what you shall eat or what you shall wear, your father knows you need these things. A teaching wholly antithetical to the "american way". Do not lay up treasures on earth where moth and rust corrupts and steals, but rather treasure heaven, our organic inheritance.

Further, the teaching is not for everyone but for those who long for it, or have "ears to hear". It is a teaching for those who had been driven into despair by their previous learning. I learned that my job, my home, my family, my reputation, none of these things are the measure of me, but find absolute legitimacy in my creature hood, as an element of nature, not as man-u-fracture.

 

OWB:

Why specifically a 'ransom'-sacrifice? According to your thinking, shouldn't sacrifice be enough? By your understanding, if Adam and Eve disconnected humanity from god, shouldn't their every descendant then have a chance not at reconnection, but connection?

Since you're so familiar with it, where is the part where it says Adam and Eve disconnected everyone from God?!

So do you equate the capacity for evil with evil? It's an interesting question provided one believes in evil, which you no doubt do. As for me, everything that has ever been called 'evil' I have only ever found to be ill. Nature is neither good nor evil.

Jesus would have put it forth. No-one has disconnected us from god, contrary to what the accusers of life may say!

So it would have been ok then for him to have died 'naturally'? That is to say at no-ones hand?

From your words, it appears you actually think he needed to be murdered.

Can you be clear?

 

?

"In every way", has a meaning and evidently you missed this line, "You have a particular spiritual gift, a particular kind of understanding that belongs to the whole body." In what way do you not think it applies or is not relevant cause to question you? The chapter is about the gifts of the spirit of which you and I both claim to recognize even though you refuse to recognize them in me.

I think it is synonymous with the kingdom of heaven but may I ask was the rest of the earth "destroyed" in the flood, or did it just get wet? Seems to me the earth is still here. Seems to me we need to ignore many extant things to believe in some of the imaginary scenarios you have adopted.

It is your question not mine.

The meaning is not altered in either translation, and yes it is verbatum from revised tandard version, 1952. Regardless, is there some level of verification or refutation that you have discovered from finding the quote in the bible?

Well in the very first instance the lesson was from the serpent. In another version the sins of the father are visited upon the sons or some such for seven generations? In your case, you tell me, where did you learn that you were a sinner, where did you learn the concept of sin? You did not emerge from the womb chiming that you were a sinner?

Paul said many things and not all of them entirely or linearly consistent. Romans 6;7 "for he who has died is freed from sin."