Pansexual?

Goat is a label of a specific kind of animal. Genitalia is a label of a specific region of the body. Every noun, adjective, adverb, and verb is a label.

 

Love is love!!!

 

Yeah, but it's not a societal label. It's a discernment of species or body parts. It could be a pansexual goat. That's when he gets a label. Goat is his name, no? Noun is the name and the other things just describe him or what he's doing.

 

It's been a long time since school, and I've smoked a dumptruck's worth of weed since I was your age, Duck!

 

Oh I see...but would you still use the word to describe the person when they were not around? I wasnt trying to guilt trip you into not using the word. All I was doing was pointing out that some people would find it offensive. And rubbing the word in my face achieved what exactly? I can't see any logical reason for doing that.

Well, I have spoken to a few transsexuals. Some have great issues with the word, and don't like being labelled that. Some don't mind it, and actually see themselves as that. I have also seen fights within the ''trans community'', where some say if you deny you are transsexual, then you are deluding yourself. Then that is countered by people saying they feel they were born with the mind of the opposite sex, have never seen themselves as their birth sex, so any label used other than the gender they see themselves as, is unacceptable to them. What was really sad was one person saying they had a lot of issues identifying with the term and didnt like it, but felt they had to try and accept it, as that is the way most people will see them. I myself never identified as a ''transsexual'', even when I was medically labelled as that. I've only ever identified as female, and I didnt/dont see why I should accept a label that I dont feel comfortable with, just to make other people feel at ease. I would be (and indeed am) hurt and offended if someone refers to me as anything apart from female terms and pronouns.

Because I can't really talk for transvestites, or people who are labelled ''trans'' but have no real issues with their bodies. I also know that most people refer to all people who fall foul of ''gender norms" as ''trannys''. So I assumed that is the way you are as well. Am I wrong? For most, the term ''tranny'' includes transvestites, trannys (people who are labelled trans, and do themselves up as, but dont feel they are, the opposite sex), and people who are trapped in the wrong body who feel they are the opposite sex to that which they were apparently born as. The big difference is, most of the people in the latter group would not identify as that label, and would take great offense to it. You just assumed I was speaking on behalf of all people who would be labelled ''trans'' when I wasnt. I was only speaking about people who feel trapped in the wrong body, and feel they are the opposite sex to the one placed on them at birth.

I think this just highlights the problems that I have with the ''trans umbrella" in general. So many different groups of people are being classed as being similar, or the same, when they are actually very different. I think the trans umbrella only serves to reinforce stereotypes, and certainly does not help the cause of people who are strugging to get their true genders recognised. I also know that some people refer to intersex people as ''trannys''. As many of them have physical characteristics of the opposite sex. Most intersex people who were brought up as the wrong gender and were mistreated with the wrong medication, usually strongly physically resemble what most refer to as a ''tranny''. (if they decide to start living as their true gender) And so are usually reffered to in such terms. Which I think just highlights the sheer ignorance of most who use the label.

But yes, I do completely agree that the word tranny itself is not offensive. It's only offensive to people who do not identify with that word. It's very weird that some people don't mind being called ''transsexual'', but would mind being called ''tranny''. That's just silly. To me, tranny is merely a slang/shortened term for transsexual. I would mind being called a tranny, but then again, I also never identified with the term transsexual. I can only think it's because a lot of people use the word ''tranny'' in a very derogatory fashion. But that is because they are prejudiced towards transsexuals, so to them its just a different word for the same thing.

Well, I think the least anyone can do at least, is to try and not offend someone personally. ''Tranny'' is unique though, in that it is used to describe different types of people who actually have very little, if anything in common with each other. I guess some ignorant people just think they are all the same, which isn't the case at all.

 

I find people over-attack generalization and easily forget that it's how the human mind works. Over-generalization and incorrect generalization = bad; no generalization = impossible.
That's the way I see it.

I smoke lots've weed too, but I'm still in school and don't have as many years to blame for my uh.. more challenge-able thoughts/beliefs, you lucky bastard =P

 

You are right. And I think this is why I have major issues with the ''trans umbrella''. The ''trans umbrella'' serves only to reinforce those generalisations. Just the fact that the ''trans community'' is hugely divided on certain issues, shows all people labelled as that are not the same. Also, some people who feel trapped in the wrong body, actually do have brain matter of the opposite sex. This makes it a natural condition, and so is no way related to fetishistic behaviours of transvestites, and those who label themselves ''trannys''. If society has an incorrect generalisation about something, it makes sense to point that out. I think the ''trans umbrella'' just plays into those generalisations.

I am actually intersex, but I feel a lot of empathy towards people who are labelled ''trans'' who feel they were born in the wrong body. As I can relate very much to how a lot of them feel. To me, ''transsexual'' was merely a label for the benefit of general society. A way of seperating me from other females, and seeing me as some kind of seperate sex/gender. That is why I always rejected the label, even without the knowledge of my intersex condition.

Me lucky? I wouldnt wish my life on anyone. lol

 

I don't see how it could reinforce negative stereotypes about transvestites or transgendered people. Maybe explain that one to me?

And I will try to use the word intersex for now on, but like ethnicity (over race) I feel it will be a tough one for me to learn, as I'm so used to hermaphrodite being used. But I will try =)



I'll keep this here as a reference as I started typing it before your latest post appeared:

There is no logical reason for doing it, I felt antagonized, so I antagonized you back - more of an emotional reaction really - and you are right, it is a dumb thing to do.

I will use whatever word I want to describe whatever person I want on my own time. When I am taking their time, I will use the words they want me to. Anything can be found offensive to someone who wants to be offended, not my problem. All that matters in a word is it's meaning. The labels that are politically correct and the ones that aren't change over time, seemingly on a whim of one person or group that has a nice loud voice. I refuse to participate in such silliness when avoidable.

So you agree that it is not a universally offensive term, and that some prefer to be called that?
Then why are we having this discussion?

No. I refer to transexuals and transvestites as trannys as they are trans "across" sexes.

I can't help it if some people get offended by a word that describes what they are.
If there is a seemingly legitimate reason to be offended, I will not use a word. African-American for instance, because a black man once told me "I'm not an African-American, I'm not from Africa, I'm an American."

They are all trans-sex. Maybe one is trans-sex in terms of gender norms, maybe one is trans-sex as far as their own personal gender, but they are both trans-sex.
They are not the same thing, but neither is a male and a female, or a white and a black - but we are still all humans.

 

I must say, sometimes I'm glad I skipped the school and smoked the weed. I'm just gonna rely on youse guys to edumacate me now.

You're right, not generalizing is impossible. And it's hard to make up a good stereotype if you we don't do some generalizing.

But giving something an identity/name seems somehow different than a label. My name is Carolyn, but you can describe me as pansexual. Carolyn isn't my label. Pansexual is. (if ya gotta be giving me a label, that is)

By no means would I argue this to the death. It's just one of my "more challenge-able thoughts/beliefs". I need to go back to class to get into some death duals!

 

I never said it reinforced negative stereotypes of transvestites, or transgendered people. However, it does reinforce stereotypes of people who feel they are born in the wrong body. This is a completely seperate issue to that of transvestitsm, autogeynephilia (meaning people who get sexual gratification from seeing themselves as the opposite sex, but do not actually feel they are the opposite sex.) and transgenderism. The ''trans umbrella'' implies that people who feel trapped in the wrong body, and that they are the opposite sex, are similar to those other groups of people. When they are totally different things. For people trapped in the wrong body, I think the ''trans umbrella'' does serve only to reinforce stereotypes which do not help the cause of people struggling to get their true genders recognised in the slightest.

Yeah well....I think most people are completely oblivious to intersex conditions anyway. And the medical profession which has tried for so many years to keep this issue out of the public domain, has only served to reinforce the illusion of narrow gender binary that most people adhere to. Hermaphrodites are merely myth. Intersex however, is very real, and society needs to start waking up and getting real about the true mechanics of gender. The medical profession's attitude towards the treatment of intersex infants is slowly changing, so hopefully one day, society will be made much more aware of the existence of intersex. And that gender, and even physical sex is not as black and white as most like to believe.

Im sorry that you felt antagnoized. I really should have made it clear that I did not see the term ''tranny'' on it's own, as offensive or derogatory. Im sorry about that.

If you're going to talk ill of people behind their backs, you should also do it to their face. Calling someone a term they find derogatory out of their earshot is really no better than calling them it to their face. All you're doing there, is giving those people the mistaken impression that you see them purely as the way they wish to be seen. I find the fact you call people seeing certain labels as offensive, as being ''politically correct'' and ''silly'' as quite disturbing. People don't actively choose to take offense to being labelled as something they don't identify as. From a very early age, I only identified as female. So I think it just makes sense then, that I would be hurt and upset if people refer to me as anything else.

I do agree it's not a universally offensive term. Why are we having this discussion? I think that will become clear when I address your points below.

You say, ''Describes what they are", but is your description based on what they actually are, or is it just based on what you THINK they are? They are both trans-sex, are they? I put it to you, that they are not. At least some of them aren't. It has been scientifically proven that some people who feel they are trapped in the wrong body do have brain matter of the opposite sex. This would certainly explain why some people feel they are the opposite sex, and why those feelings are usually among the first memories that people who feel trapped in the wrong body have. The people who I have spoken to who don't like being labelled ''transsexual'', all say it is because they do not feel they are changing their gender at all. That their gender always was the opposite that their anatomy suggested.

So, some people are born neurologically the opposite sex to that of their outer anatomy. Are those people then really changing their gender? I put it to you, that they are not. And certainly it is understandable why a lot of people who feel trapped in the wrong body would take offense at any label that isn't in line with their true gender. I know I cannot stop you from using the word in conjunction with those people. But I hope you can at least see why some would take offense to it.

 

Well, I was talking about trans people the whole time... and don't think you clearly introduced this autogeynephilia until now. I can see now looking back on it what you were talking about, but this whole time I thought you were talking about trangendered people when you said people who feel trapped in their bodies, as I've never heard of anyone who has this condition that has not considered themselves trans.

If you ask me, anyone that doesn't adhere strictly to their gender norms is likely to feel like they identify better with another sex at times, I know I sure do.
I can't rightly picture myself as a female, but sometimes when I masturbate, in my fantasies I take up the female role - imagine the female sensations of having a vaginal stimulation or my boob groped.

I don't see calling someone by a term that describes them as speaking ill of them, I think I have made this reasonably clear, and you haven't said much to suggest otherwise, aside from some people don't like it - which I've already replied numerous times that you can't please everyone.

Okay, so then go back to my example of how I have met blacks that don't like to be called black, african-american, or colored. What should I say to refer to them?
You said it yourself that some people prefer the term tranny. If I were to call them... whatever you want me to call them, then I could offend people who like the term tranny, no?

The same thing has been proven about homosexual brains. Do you have such feelings against the word homosexual?
And in any case, yes, the term trans-sex still explains them - as they are trans ("across, beyond, through, or transverse") the two major genders.

No, I do not. You've given plenty of justifications for why people would not like the term - but not one of them holds up to my logical examination. If they are neurologically opposite of their anatomical gender, they are still trans of the two major genders.

All you keep giving me is reasons why they are trans, while telling me that calling them trans is bad.

 

I specifically mentioned autogeynephilia because it is a completely seperate thing from people who feel they are the opposite sex, and that they are trapped in the wrong body. As for not knowing anyone who feels trapped in the wrong body who does not consider themselves trans, well all I can say is there is a great number of them out there. Back before I discovered about my intersex condition, I felt completely isolated, as I didnt feel I fitted in anywhere. I saw myself as only female, but knew most of society would not see me as that if they knew my background. I also did not identify as transsexual, so didn't feel I fitted in with that group. The only labels I identified with, were purely female ones.

But, having spent some time on a transsexual messageboard, I realised that there are some people who are labelled ''transsexual'' who either don't label themselves as that, or have great issues with being labelled that. In fact, my time there exposed deep divisions within the ''trans community'', and one of the main reasons for that, was some people rejecting that as a label for themselves. I remember one time someone (who does identify as trans) said that to deny I was born ''male'' was deluding myself. (which turned out to be highly ironic, as I actually am mainly female genetically.) This statement caused a lot of anger in people who have never identified with their birth gender. Certainly, even from my limited experience of the ''trans community'' I can see it is very divided, and seems to be of assistance to no-one other than a narrow minded society who likes throwing everyone who falls foul of gender ''norms'' into one big box of ''weird'' and be done with it.

Well, I've never seen myself as anything other than female. I have never pictured myself as male, I dont think I could do that even if I tried. And any time I have pictured myself having sex, its always been with a normal female body. I think this is why the ''trans'' label never sat right with me. Ive only ever seen myself as female, nothing else. I do like some things that are seen as stereotypically male, like watching football. But you dont have to be a man to do that, and Ive never seen myself as a male purely because I like certain things that are associated with the male gender. I seen myself as a tomboy growing up, but crucially, not male. Even though that was how I was treated by everyone else around me.

I still dont think it describes them, but you're missing the point. If that is the way you see them, why do you pander to them, and pretend you dont see them like that when you do? You should say what you feel, and if it offends someone, that is their problem. Saying something that you don't really feel, is just giving out false impressions to people. Now, Im not saying you should be actively trying to offend people. But, if you think that people who are trapped in the wrong body are trannys, then you shouldnt try and hide that for fear of offending people. Because at the end of the day, you still see them as something they don't identify as. Whether you say it to their face, or just behind their back is neither here nor there really.

Well, if they don't want to be called any of those things, then you shouldnt call them those things. Unless you want to, of course.

Your last point there is just beyond ridiculous. Yes, some people do identify with the term ''tranny''. (I have still yet to hear a single person who says they feel trapped in the wrong body refer to themselves as that, or say they like the term) But those people are completely different, and usually feel completely different to the people Ive been talking about. If someone is a tranny, then that is how you refer to them. For me, it's simply this. Transvestites & autogeynephiles=tranny. People who only identify as the opposite sex, have done all their lives and have a genuine brain/body mismatch=their neurological gender. I think you would agree that the latter group are different to the former. And if you do agree with this, why would you refer to both as ''trannys''?

That is totally false. The scientific tests that found that some people labelled ''transsexual'' had brain matter of the opposite sex, also found there was no difference between the brains of straight and gay men. At least in relation to the brain gender. There is currently no proof that homosexuality has a biological basis. (I personally believe it does, but there's been no proof of that) Homosexuals do not have brain matter of the opposite sex. I dont know where you heard that, but certainly all of the research I have read about has shown that homosexuals have brain matter entirely in line with their birth sex. Only some ''transsexuals'' have been found to have brain matter which is the opposite of their apparent birth sex. If what you are saying is true, why dont gay men identify as female then?

Seeing as what you've just said is false, I can reject your connection between transsexual's and homosexual's brain sex. Anyways, have you ever heard of homosexuals who find that to be a mislabelling term? I certainly havent, and Id be surprised if you have either. If there's ''proof'' that gays have brain matter of the opposite sex, prove it. Otherwise, I stick by everything Ive said.

I have already mentioned that the narrow gender binary that most adhere to, (you included by the sounds of it) is just an illusion. So I am obviously going to reject the notion that ''trans-sex'' explains them.

You're also saying that I have said why some people would not like the term, yet you are saying that is not logical. If someone is neurologically a certain gender, then they are obviously only going to see themselves as that gender. With that being the case, I fail to see the difficulty in realising that such people would have major issues in being reffered to as anything that implies they are in any way not the gender which they have always identifed as. To me, that is completely logical. In fact, it is illogical to assume that they would not be hurt by that.

If you really cant see why the term ''tranny'' would be offensive to some people, even after all I've said, then I don't think I will ever be able to convince you otherwise.


I did add something to an earlier post, but I think you probably didn't see it.

 

What? What does "like that" mean here? =S

I have been doing that this WHOLE time, and you have been telling me I am being ignorant and offensive.

They do identify as being trans, they just don't identify with the name trans. Everything you have said has pointed to them being beyond the two major genders - which is exactly what trans means.

Because they are all trannys.
I've explained the meaning of the word trans a billion times, and yet you have completely ignored it.
Transgendered, transvesties, and autogeynephiles are all trans-sex. They are all above, beyond, through the two major genders. Yes, in their own ways, yes, they are different - but they are still all trans-sex. Different categories of trans-sex just like there are different genres of movies or classes in the animal kingdom or different genders in general.

A firetruck and a dumptruck are different, but they are both trucks.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...tructured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html


You can retort, plese feel free to, and I give you my word that I will read it if you do, but I have exhausted myself on this topic.
It's been a good debate (I've even learned some things) and I hope you've enjoyed it as well.

 

I mean that you would see them as a tranny, even if they didn't see themselves as that. That was simply what I meant.

Used in conjuction with certain people, it is ignorant and offensive. I'm not saying it's not ignorant or offensive. But if that is the way you see things, then you shouldn't hide that just because you don't want to upset people.

What I said obviously completely went over your head. Some people labelled ''trans'' do not identify as that. Indeed, I never identified as that. And even if I'd never discovered about my intersex condition, I would have always rejected any ''trans'' label as a label for myself. Everything I have said has pointed to them being beyond the narrow gender binary that most adhere to. NOT the gender binary as it actually is. I will also add here, that gender and physical sex are actually entirely seperate things. Its only a problem when the gender of the person is at odds with their phsyical sex. Most people's views on gender binary, including your own, are very narrow. That narrow gender binary though, is an illusion. At least it is in purely scientific and medical terms. I dont think Im ever going to change your mind on gender binary though, so Im never going to convince you of the derogatory nature of the term ''tranny' towards certain groups of people.

By your own logic, that also makes intersex people trannys as well. If you do think intersex people are trannys, well....that is just horribly misguided and wrong. And if you don't, then I think you've just shot yourself in the foot.

You talk about the ''two major genders'' yet all the people Ive been talking about see themselves ONLY as one of those two genders. It is people like you who choose to give them a sub-label which seperates them from those two genders, not the people themselves.

That is a very interesting article. The fact that all the previous brain tests done in regards to this found no difference in brain sex between gays and straights, but did find differences between the brains of transsexuals and the brain they should have based on physical anatomy alone, would tell me that the areas of the brain that have been tested, are different. Crucially, the article you presented mentions specifically in regards to sexuality. Some transpeople actually identify as gay, because they are attracted to members of the opposite gender to the ones they see themselves as. Gay people also dont identify as being the opposite sex. It is a very fascinating article. I for one believe that most gay people, just like most people who feel they were born in the wrong body, were born the way they are. The scientific evidence seems to bear that out, as well as most of those people feeling they were born the way they are.

It has been a good debate, and although we dont agree on some issues, I still feel our conversation has been productive. Especially in regards to intersex, I think it is something that needs to be brought into the public domain and discussed more. I think we have exhuasted the arguement though, I dont think I will ever convince you that you are wrong, and vice versa. lol

 

There's one last, and very important thing that I'd like to point out here. Transvestitsm and autogeynephila are purely sexual fetishes, and have NOTHING whatseover to do with gender itself. They are not even ''trans-sex" as you put it, as those people generally have no issues with their physical sex. So you're comparing sexual fetishisists, to people with a recognised medical condition. And crucially, people who actually do have some biological make up of the opposite sex. Putting those people in the same category as those born with a brain/body mismtach is not like comparing different kinds of trucks. (Comparing transvestitsm and autogynephila would be like doing that) Its like saying a truck is a plane. Which is not accurate at all, and is patently ridiculous. Maybe you cant see why a person would be affronted having their brain/body mismatch which has caused them a lot of pain and distress in their lives, being compared with sexual fetishes, but I certainly can.

 

Reminds me of a Bill Hicks sketch -

Hey goat boy!!!

rettyplease:

 

Pansexual, huh????

I had a torrid love affair with a beautiful copper clad French saute pan once. It was hot...sizzling even!!!

Zen

 

:rofl: Cute!!

 

interesting