Petition: Teach Science, Not "Intelligent Design"

If my rational mind is an obstacle to understanding ID (or God generally), then you've just made my point for me (that ID is not science). Moreover, LSD doesn't take you "beyond" your mind. It alters the same mind you've had your whole life. I watch Hitchcock movies when I trip. I really groove on them (esp. Rear Window). Do I have good reason to claim that there's some Hitchcockian designer? You'll not get very far in life abandoning reason.

So, because quantum physicists demonstrated some claims about relativity this shows that consciousness "grounds" (i.e. is the foundation of) all being? That is, without consciousness there would be no being? Another very unscientific (because nonverifiable) sounding thought.

I always lighten up when I trip. I'm not trippin' now.

 

Gunison. You have earned a LIBERTINE AWARD.

2005's Remarkably Intelligent Poster Award.

And HITCH RULES.

www.myspace.com/libertineguru :sunglasse

 

Thanks, man.

Here's looking at you:

 

All I see here is a whole lotta talk and no science.

Where's the science behind ID? The fact that humans are intelligent and have made complex things does not mean that then by default all the complex things in the natural world must have then been made by something intelligent. It is NOT science, it is bad logic, and could be more accurately be considered philosophy if anything...

So tell me, how can we test ID scientifically? How do we test something that supposedly doesn't exist in the natural world (an intelligent designer) with science, which is a study that can only test things of the natural world?



To consider a theory scientific, and to teach it as science in a science class, there has to be some science behind it. Science doesn't just think of something that sounds like it could work and leave it at that, there is an actual method to the testing of phenomena in the natural world and what we consider scientific knowledge. Just because a paticular theory deals with an topic normally studied by scientists (origin of life/universe) doesn't mean that theory itself is scientific. Otherwise we could consider the ancient chinese belief that the earth hatched from a cosmic egg a scientific theory and should be teaching it in science class. Only you aren't partial to those religious beliefs like you are your creationism.

 

I think you might have answered your question for ID.
Almost.
Yes, actually when you find that movies always have one thing in common - A Director (Intelligent Designer)
then
You actually are being very reasonable to conclude that (based on repeated tests and observations) that any movies are created by Directors.

If they have words saying 'Directed By Alfred Hitchcock' at the beginning then scientifically speaking - A.H. is the 'best and most likely cause'.

Now you might demand that I demonstrate to you how Directors explain distribution or marketing but at the end of the day its still stands as the best and most reasonable explanation for films.

Believing that a film was created by 'natural unguided forces' is easily the worst explanation possible.
You never observed such a thing happening by natural forces.

But hey.. dont let me ruin the party.
Its not a good example anyways.. a single human cell is far more complex and contains more working information than a simple Hitchcock movie.
Goes to show.

 

You are comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare human creations to the things of the natural world.

The way your logic works is as follows:

Since humans have the ability to make somewhat complex creations then therefore a higher being must have made the very complex world.

I don't follow. It is a big leap to claim since men can make movies or machines or whatever then a god must have made EVERYTHING. Terrible logic really, and far, far, far from scientific evidence.

Just because humans use our intelligence to make things doesn't mean everything was created by something with intelligence. I hope that isn't all you ID proponets got, you'll never get your shit into a science class with that...

The logical flaw you are giving us is a hasty generalization (among others).

General idea of the flaw:

1. X% of all observed A's are B''s.
2. Therefore X% of all A's are B's.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html




Edit: Science had the victory in PA today! http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/12/20/intelligent.design/index.html

 

Oy vay! So now because films have designers/directors, the universe (the whole universe!) must as well???

What the hell? That 'Rear Window' (or most any film) had a director/designer isn't at issue. Whether or not the universe had a designer is.

And natural explanations explain pretty well how the cell got to be the way it is (which is all science is after). What does an intelligent designer add to the explanation? Nothing. Know why? Because the worldly effects of the ID explanation are qualitatively indifferent from the naturalistic explanation. After all, what can you say about cells except, "Biology works rather well, and there's an intelligent designer involved that I can't say anything further about except to merely restate my claim that this designer exists."

Not only is that a useless explanation scientifically, it's useless generally.

 

Gunison, this Erasmus fellow is obviously extremely ignorant of science -- especially the theory of evolution and cosmology.

 

It hilarious to see three people in a row totally miss the 747 that just flew over their heads.
Walking around pointing at nonsense "is this it.. this is it right"
Wow.
To bad you people cant think for yourselves and wont question the authority on this one eh.

 

Yup. Won't be the last time, I bet. As one of my favorite philosophers might say, "if you're going to play the language game, play it well."

Cheers.

 

Of all the accusations, a THEIST claiming we don't "question authority"?

Ah! "Authority" for thousands of years have claimed that the invisible sky daddy invented everything. We question that.

Science is NOT religion. If a scientific theory is wrong, the science changes to fit reality. The Bible is the other way around. Religion forces a square peg in a round hole. It cannot EVER admit being wrong. It has to apologize its way through by playing word games and filling people full of fear and guilt or false promises.

We DO question authority. We DO think for ourselves. We don't play puppet show with imaginary father figures. We debate, challenge, question and experiment. We rely on facts, ideas, and other forms of "heresy".

The only "747" around here is the LIE perpetrated by superstitious deceivers.

 

Tim Leary had a cosmic sense of humor unlike his supposed supporter Libertine... He probably didn't rebirth on earth, and is on some astral plane right now, not like the cartoon of course, it is beyond human conception... but you get the point. He never thought matter was supreme, he got that consciousness was the ground of all being even though he never understood it as clearly as Ram Dass, and didn't quite grasp the brain.

Although he clearly thought an intelligence was guiding the evolution of man. Like he said cannibus evolved synchronistically with the human brain receptors sites... another way of saying it is God made the herb for man, like that Peter Tosh song.

And despite all our disagreements, for I have many issues with Tim's theories except his question authority and think for yourself trip... He had an amazing cosmic sense of humor...

One Libertine is seriously lacking. But he is questioning Tim obviously, which Tim wanted people do about him, he never wanted anyone to take him seriously... But only on level one...

One level three, there I am, in his form, laughing deep down at the cosmic joke... if only Libertine could die psychologically, and the true being could be revealed to that form.

 

I do not worship Dr. Leary and I disagree with some of his philosophy. I do not, however, espouse Leary as a mystic. He was not.

Both Ram Dass and Ralph Metzner attest to this fact. Many of you need to stop using the fallacious connection between quantum physics and the supernatural. Everything is natural (in some form or other).

In "Your Brain Is God", Leary's "theology" is summed up pretty clearly. And it has nothing to do with supernaturalism--which is, ironically, what we are discussing here.

When it come to "Sky Daddy", Leary and I share the same belief-- that the only "God" is yourself.

 

Ralph and Ram Dass both agree that Timmy is a jokester, we shouldn't take anything he says seriously... he doesn't believe what he says... what sums up Tim's philosophy in his own words is

WOW



He said that in Tim Leary's Dead... I mean come on, the guy gets it regaurdless of how he feels about the brain.

I knew it when you say "yourself" you mean the ego, you mean the personality, the body, the material plane... It is your God... the only plane of reality for you, how boring your life must be if that is that is the only channel on your TV set.

You should get cable.



Your ego worship is surely is the path to incredible sufferings and horrors, and it will only contribute to the further despair of this world...

Although being part of the evil of this world is part of the drama, it is your part to play..

There is no evil, there is only good, only god, no duality.

You are just playing your part, I accept it.

Yet it may take you your whole life living trapped in the prison of your mind for you to wake up... It may take until death.

When you brain dies, you will see, that there you are. Right here, right now, and you will take rebirth in another earthly form... You will understand all the planes and see...

Or perhaps you are sooooo attached to your ego, to Libertine, that you will end up a ghost, wandering around stuck in between planes, mumbling out painful droans about questioning authority and stuff... haunting people... it won't last though, so no worries.

Wake up to YOURSELF, the true BEING, the conciousness that is everpresent and in all things, Find your cosmic sense of humor, and die psychologically...

Then you will see, that the real you has been waiting... it has always been AWARE, watching part of itself get lost in a massive ego trip, a massive confusion based on an addiction to the rational mind.



Be HERE NOW!


PS: and you need to get quantum mechanics, because the connections are MORE THEN OBVIOUS. Just materialists get thier panties are wrinkiled up shaking in their cold cold world, I don't want to give up the ego, I don't want to give it up... I'm not ready.

Ok man, you're not ready, it's alright, stick with your materialist scumbag philosophy and make the world a worse place for everybody... go for it... Better yet if you really want to fuck everything up, just be a Hitler youth, come on.

Join us in a place where...

 

I think you and I could have quite a conversation there, Dr. Alpert.

The only difference is that I espouse none of the philosophy of Hitler, asshole. That was not ONLY a low blow, but a stupid comment as well. And a personal insult.

I am about as liberal as one can be, but not gullible. I do not espouse irrationality or absurdity as a method to live life to anyone. I do espouse questioning authority, challenging assumptions and living life as one chooses.

Debate is part of that process.

 

My point is not that you are into the philosophy of Hitler, your intentions are probably great, and yes it was a low blow...



But in my eyes, the evil of this world comes from materialism... the mayic force that leads people away from spirit and towards matter...

This leads violence and racism and hatred...

Maya and materialism is what created Hitlers, and that is what you espouse.

Not only that but holding matter as supreme is what created the atom bomb, and the incredible destructive powers of humanity.


On the bright side though, materialism has created many good achievements in health care and comfortable living, which I def. appretiate. Yet still the mystical is the only hope for humanity.

It is materialism and duality that essetially made the holocaust possible and lead to the deaths of soo many jews...

Yet Jesus is Hitler and Hitler is Jesus, we all have them both inside us.

THere is no duality here man...

Yet it's just a puppet show anyway, the cosmic consciousness does it all... it did it all, it is it all, I blame nothing on Hitler or your ego... just parts in the drama...


and its a cosmic joke, don't take my insults personally, and question me, question authority! hehehehe


Now I'm no Osho fan friend, but check this out http://www.otoons.com/mysticrose/o/o.html

Maybe you'll get this cosmic joke... it really explains it in a silly way.

 

Indeed, you and I could have quite a conversation.

 

So because we don't think just like you we aren't thinking for ourselves?

Come back when you have something useful to contribute to the conversation rather than the typical useless, illogical christian rheortic regarding the topic. We've heard it all before.

DAMN STRAIGHT

 

Yeah man I dig you, you are one of my favorite people to disagree with, because you fire back and keep the debate rolling, I love it... you are the kind of person this forum needs.

See my whole point is not to convince anybody of anything, but to work on my ego, to develop the still mind, the deep realization, when the flowers blooms it need not send invitations to the bees.

Here is some Leary quotes that I like, just paging through my copy of Turn on, Tune in and Drop out...

"I'm convinced that the religious kick in the only experience that makes life worthwhile. The moment of revelation when you are turned on to the whole process, which men of old called the mystic, is the whole purpose of life. The great religious leaders were the greatest figures of all. Buddha was the most turned on guy. Buddha wanted to get rid of suffering."

"God does exist and to me, is the energy process"

I bet if I really looked and found Tim Leary's thoughts on quantum mechanics he would agree with Goswami understanding of consciousness being the ground of all being. That's the energy process, the consciousness... the energy... whatever you want to call it...

Tim understand there was intelligence in the design... He was into the DNA code, and think it has smarts, he thought for instance that weed evolved along side with the brain with synchrosnity...

Thus not the random material processes that athiestic materialists suggest.

 

I am indeed an "offspring", of sorts, to the TFYQA Learyan Philosophy. I do believe that where Dr. Leary and I may disagree is that it takes a little more evidence for me to accept mysticism. Not that I would NEVER accept it, but it would take something above and beyond (if you know what I mean) for me to believe any experience or event was anything but a degree of nature (i.e. natural). It isn't the experiences I doubt, it is the "supernaturalism" of the mystics.

The "afterlife". The "spirit realm". Incarnation or resurrection? I believe in recycling. My body goes back into nature. My individual conciousness does not extend beyond the death of my brain. To give me evidence otherwise only means to give me MORE of a reason to believe in these things mentioned than not to.