God knows what we need but we do not. Your heartfelt prayers are susceptible to the habits of judgment. You may think you need things but that apparent lack is created by our own judgments, not through god's judgment. That is the reason for the prayer. It's principles are edifying to those who use them. The principles of the prayer are the appropriate response to help you take your place at gods table. Jesus is not a philosophy but he espoused one. Be vigilant only for god and his kingdom. Jesus' role as an elder brother is to bring more of gods presence through the holy spirit than you would otherwise be able to see. God created the world and all that is in it. You speak of super apostles, do you mean like paul and john who are far more heady than jesus. The book of revelation for example, is far beyond a child's ability to comprehend. There is no gnostic harlot lest it be those two. We are children of god in creation.
They aren't our own judgement if we prostate ourselves to God. We're putting him in the drivers seat not ourselves. There is a philosophy to it but Paul talked of turning the ministry of Jesus into a lofty philosophy which later turns into a graven image which is against true worship. No, I mean the ones Paul mentioned. Actually Paul relied on spiritual knowledge instead of the cardinal although he may have practiced the later, he grieved a godly grieving. Whenever Paul spoke using worldly knowledge he would say so: Romans 6:19 "I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves."
Thy kingdom come thy will be done. First principle. Paul was such, as he spoke against. Paul was zealous. Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Third principle. What is loosed on earth is also loosed in heaven. Paul accused because he lacked authority. When you put a lock on a gate, you make everyone a thief. Let he who is without blame cast the first stone. Don't get me wrong, Paul is a brother but he had an authority problem that influenced his dialectic. Forgive me my trespass as I forgive those who trespass against me. Second principle.
Don't know about first but it's definitely crucial. Jesus was also zealous. And as I said, Paul used human arguments sometimes for a specific purpose but he describes when he switches. He has authority since his testimony is found trustworthy by God. 1 Corinthians 7:25 "I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy." (Discussing whether or not elders should marry). He rebuked the church for the sake of love and the truth not from false accusations.
It is the first principle in the lords prayer. For paul it is a specific characteristic. Jesus was not described that way. The least are equal to christ. Paul had an authority problem with his compatriots. He was defending himself.
When you wrote "former", did you mean latter? Saying all repetitions are vain certainly contradicts the Scripture quoted in which Jesus repeats himself thrice, the tax collector repeats his prayer of contrition, etc... Yes, there are vain prayers to begin with (such as Indian chants and mantras), and in those cases they are repeated. What Jesus is getting at that do not think God will answer prayers simply because we've said it lots, we have to truly believe it too. Repeating a prayer might be a sign that we do believe it (such as the tax collector). I do not know the traditions of other groups in the first century near east, but I'd be interested to find out. Did they use mantra type prayers, or what was going on. That may help in this exegesis.
Interestingly I do not see the Greek word for "vain" in the scripture we are discussing. Here you go: Μαθθαῖον 6·7 Προσευχόμενοι δὲ μὴ βατταλογήσητε ὥσπερ οἱ ἐθνικοί, δοκοῦσιν γὰρ ὅτι ἐν τῇ πολυλογίᾳ αὐτῶν εἰσακουσθήσονται. Perhaps you would be so good as to point out the Greek word "vain" for me. As for your examples; In Matt. 26:44; where you say Jesus prayed three times in the same words, a simple perusal of the scriptures involved show that although Jesus prayed similar thoughts the words were actually different, check out verses 39 and 42. In Luke 18:13; You say that the the tax collector beat his breast repeating the same words but I only read him saying them one time. Here in Rev. 4:8; you say the 4 creatures of Heaven repeat "Holy, holy, Holy,..." for eternity and that is what it says. But it seems in your rush to defend the Catholic practice of repetitive prayer, that you didn't take into consideration that Revelation is entirely a vision given to John and thus those 4 creatures may not even exist but could represent something else all together. Next, If the 4 creatures do exist and their soul purpose is to repeat Holy, Holy, Holy for eternity, it does not say that their saying Holy, Holy, Holy is a prayer . "Exegesis like this is what makes me suspicious of other interpretations from the" Catholics "and people with similar views."
Yes, I do. Do you really believe that people forget what you've said from post to post so that you can backtrack and contradict what you've said in previous posts and call it "expounding"?
Yeah, yeah, it is not there. If we really want to get persnickity, it is "suttering" and using "many words", not even repeating words. How many words are too many, Must my prayers be 10 words or less? Even in the Greek Interlinear, the concept that it is not merely the repeating of words (or the Greek could mean even ideas which would then give creedence to the Gesthemene argument) but the idea that some had that God would only listen if you asked over and over and over. Obviously, as is stated elsewhere in Scripture, we only need to ask once because God knows what is in our hearts, we just need to speak it, it does not say that we cannot ask again. Looking also as prayer as praise and thanksgiving, not merely requests, doesn't it defeat the purpose of St Paul's comment to "pray unceasingly" if we are to not pray using many many words? I think this shows again how it is not merely repeating prayers, but repeating them in vain (either because they are vain to begin with, or because we think we need to repeat some formula in which we do A and get B as a result). Faith must always come before expectaitons placed on God. I covered this above. Looking at the Greek, it is not merely about repeating them, but repeating with the expectation that the many words will have a different effect thn few words. Got me there Well it continues praising God. I;d consider it a prayer of praise, glorifying God. I find it strange you imply the 4 creatures nonexistence, yet seem to uphold other symbolic things as literal history and future history Good one my friend.
Actually i encourage people to be salty. If you can claim that the two creation stories are the same, that one expands upon the other, I don't see the problem. Regardless, the lords prayer is a statement of principle. Further when calling single mindedly upon these principles, we exercise the admonition of sinning no more, looking to god for all substance and forgiving our brother that we may see the being, absent our judgments against him, that god created.
I just meant that I am unsure of whether or not to put them in any numerical order. Not sure about what you're saying. I do not read it in that way.
Not true - We know some of the nature of God, and some of the power of God. Certainly not God in his fullness - no one can comprehend nor understand that.
