glynos, Your question is a meaningless trick of logic: Define god, and define the perfect brownie, and an answer will be forthcoming. ---- Rock on, kc! You are my favorite believer.
- Would I be right in believing that allthough you believe god created the world this way for a reason, you can't actually imagine a coherent reason why he can? As Glynos said, surely god could make a world which has a conception of good but without bad. It's all well and good claiming that good and bad are a matter of perspective, but the general fact of the matter is that all societies have main concepts of good and bad set in stone, and these don't differ that much from culture to culture anyway. Does the world really need rape? Or any other token "bad" act that we all agree on? Personally, I believe if God set up the world like this then his only reason must be that he's some kind of sadist. You can if your god surely? And why not make a world that isn't full of hurt, or full of beings that don't have a capacity for things such as grief, sorrow and such. Faith: not wanting to know what is true. - Freddy Nietzsche -
This is where benevolence should come into it. If God could stop bad things from happening, then a benevolent God would. So you don't believe that humans have a soul? Or you believe that animals have souls? Surely that would be a Christian's view on the difference between animals and humans wouldn't it? That humans have a soul and animals don't? I highly doubt it is a Christian belief that humans are the same as animals. Also Adam, pre being part of a species of crybabies, in his animalistic state, isn't responsible for eating that apple? If you told a rat not to eat an apple and he ate it, would you consider him to be morally responsible?
Just to throw my two cents in here: If Adam and Eve knew nothing about Good and Evil until after eating the apple, how could they know it would be wrong to disobey God? It's like God deliberately trying to screw humanity, setting the rules against themselves. Oddly enough, once Adam and Eve discovered that they were naked, they knew it was wrong and shameful...yet God created them that way, and had they not eaten the apple, they would have run around in sinful nudity for their (eternal?) lives. Like I said, the rules set against themselves... I see this story as just that: a story meant to illustrate a few things; namely, why men have to work, why childbirth hurts, why snakes slither and flick their tounges (an important philosophical issue, mind you). I don't put much stock in these kinds of things (scripture and dogma), though, nor am I a christian anymore (sort of a atheist/buddhist/seeker...very hard to label me, haha).
i think that the evil of the serpent was a throwback to the snake-goddesses worshipped heavily in the region. it was an attempt to discredit their worshippers. snakes being historically related to female sexuality.
Yes, but more importantly, to spiritual growth and change. Snakes were a common symbol for that, due to snakes shedding their skin. In fact, one might look at the serpent in the Genesis story as a savior, saving us from dumbness and setting us on a spiritual path one level higher than before, now that we understand good and evil. Still an alegory but maybe a better way of understanding it...
that's an interesting point, one to chew on. i myself feel no sadness over the acts of adam and eve. i'm pretty grateful, to be honest. i thrive on a good conflict. i think that all happened for a reason, and the symbology of the story is so deep and layered that it never fails to fascinate. after all, isn't it funny that anthropologists figure it was probably women who figured out how to plant seeds and such since their role was that of the gatherer? they were more closely examining plants and such. men had the role of hunters, which requires less DAILY effort, those as a hunter myself, i do know how hard it is, even with my modern instruments. but when you think about the punishment, that adam now has to toil in the fields for his food after eating the fruit of knowledge, isn't it funny that eve was the first to eat? perhaps that fruit of knowledge was partially just an understanding of how to more fully exploit our environment, and eve was the first to eat of it. also, that childbirth should be so much harder on women now. well, they say the head to hip ratio is higher in human females than any other species. how interesting that our brains are so much bigger and more complex, and that this causes the greater danger of childbirth in humans. AH! chewy concepts! you gotta love 'em!
hey guys, now i dont know an awful lot about Christianity and quite frankly im glad i dont but thats neither here not there, just wanted something cleared up, if you are a Christian does this mean that you as a person believe that Adam and Eve actually existed and that the Garden of Eden was a factual place? oh yea and that the Earth was created in 7 days? ppl trully believe this? im not here to start a massive argument on the subject coz the argument can never be won, u cannot prove god just as i cannot disprove god but i do find religion sickening at times. A concept concieved through fear and self doubt, it is not just a control mechanism past down through the ages in varying guises but it is also a very convienient way to take the fear away from death. as a person i just find it astounding that a person would devote so much of their lives to something that they cannot prove, infact there isnt even the slightest smallest proof of god is there, nothing at all. yet Billions of ppl will accept the idea of a god as truth, even without the evidence. maybe the jury on O.J Simpson trial were all religious, they blatently disregarded the evidence...., in this case the evidence that there is in fact no proof of a higher being. no doubt those of u who are religious will talk about things like, the miracle of life and the earth and bla bla bla. Jesus performed Miracles (Magic) u bow to him, Paul Daniels performs Magic, why dont u worship him. Rich
The bible is filled with allegory. Only fanatics take it literally. I should say fanatics and atheist.
hey rich. well, there ARE those who believe that the genesis story is an actual fact. however, there's some points made in the debate thread on the subject. not all believe the bible literally. i myself find most of it to be allegorical, but no less valid. much of the bible is a history of human experience, and as we all know, a smart person may learn from their mistakes, but a truly wise person can learn from the mistakes of others. in this sense i find much of it to be valuable. it's also very handy for dredging up good personal questions regarding various ethical concepts, at least for me. i find i come away from the bible with more questions than answers, but that just makes me love it more. tell me, what do you spend much of your life doing? is it any more valid than what christians do to bring themselves joy and peace? prove it's more valid. sure there's some christians out there who are real assholes. but they'd be assholes without christianity, too. for them christianity is just a handy framework.
someone posted this elsewhere and i have to paste it, its brilliant... "Your religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of 10 things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these 10 things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to live and suffer and and burn and choke and scream and cry for ever and ever until the end of time...but he loves you. How do you feel about that?" u see how ridiculous the idea of God sounds now? really truly think about it and ask yourself honestly... u think thats true?? whats so concerning is that millions of ppl believe this...
my argument is not with the validity of a christian and what they do, u are free to do and believe whatever u want, i have no probs with that. the point i try to make is that for all ppls arguments for the existence of God, no evidence is being used. it never is when ppl try to argue their case. now whats great about this kind of debate is that there is no proof of what i believe either. myself being Agnostic, now i have just as much right to take this stance as u do with yours, Your beliefs however require evidence to be proven, mine dont.
i disagree that my beliefs require proof that you can understand. that's why it's faith. and i have this faith because certain experiences and understandings have brought me to this point. these personal experiences MIGHT be explained, but there's nothing for you to lay your hands on that will 'prove' it to you. it's a pretty risky, but i've come to believe, brave position to take, having faith.
richboy21, Ah, but your beliefs DO require evidence to be accepted as correct. Simply stating "there is no god" begs the question: what is your explanation?
My main problem with faith is thus - People with faith will generally have faith regardless of clear cut evidence that disproves their faith. Usually people won't question their faith, which is something that surely needs to be done if one really wishes to prove their faith to be true. One without faith isn't bound by his beliefs. Should evidence arise to support the idea of a theological idea, the sceptic will change his ways. mynameiskc, I do appreciate you for the way you try to find reasons for your faith, which is what has kept me interested here. However, I still worry about the fact that you will go to great efforts to re-word the Bible to fit your personal beliefs, but I can't help thinking that your interpretation is merely reactionary to the obvious lack of integrity the Bible holds, if it is to be taken literally. Had people not criticised the Bible for these things, then I'm sure you wouldn't be seeking the allegorical aspect of it. Do you believe that the big bang and evolution are compatible with Christianity, or do you simply not believe in these ideas? It seems you'll do anything to hold on to Christianity, even when faced with what seems to be the blatant truth amongst the enlightened.
