Right to Protest Pledge of Allegiance?

You have a great religion!

 

Just out of curiosity (directed towards the OP)...and this is in no way intended as an insult... have you ever been off of the American Continent?

(I think that question does connect to your initial one, because if you intend to criticize a society/country/culture, perhaps it would be wise to know what others outside of this continent are like, yes Cuba has free healthcare, much of Western Europe does as well… but are you taking into consideration the social structure? A countries religious dominance over it‘s citicents - for example the war in Northern Ireland with England. What dreams do you have? What are your goals in life - if any? Etc. etc. etc. )

I have traveled a great deal and seen a great deal of the world. And although I agree with you absolutely that this nations inherent freedoms are being starved out to virtual non-existence…throughout my travels I’ve also come to believe that the American Dream is a very real thing… and I’m not at all saying this out of patriotic ignorance or anything like that… I disagree with a lot of the things our government is doing… I’ve been “On The Road” for the past 3 - 4 years now… seeing the world… and have only recently returned back to the shores of New York and have come to find these streets are not paved in gold and encrusted with diamonds…but our communal dream is. Yes we are flawed. Yes we are human. Yes we have much left to learn. But the potential for
dreams and growth are exponential. Freedom is not limited to what house you live in or what job you have or what your government bans or lets you in on…to me, it is also a societies suppression or encouragement of dreaming in color. Yes, we need change here, yes…our government needs to be made aware. But this is far larger then 1 person or even 2 not standing up for the pledge… yes you have a right not to stand…but if you don’t… what’s the worst that’ll happen? Detention?

Meanwhile countless kids our age have fallen to the sidelines in the republic of Ireland…a fully western and developed nation…let alone what goes on in the third world. I think you would practically come a lot farther if you were to enlighten your classmates and teacher intellectually and give them your reasons for not standing. Write a pamphlet, hold a speech, start up the topic one person at a time in lunch. But keep in mind that this too…is freedom. However limited it may seem. All in all...is it really that bad?

 

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag..." (to a piece of cloth?) "..and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation..."

When someone confronts you and calls you an America hater, the conversation might go better if you considered that they might be pledging to the Republic the flag stands for, without implying that that Republic has been fully realized.

In other words, others standing for the pledge does not imply they are blind to current affairs any more then your not standing implies a hatred of America.

Just a hint for the impending confrontation.

 

i acknowledged that i was getting off topic but i was trying to explain better what i had meant earlier. sorry for getting off topic, but hey ur topic helped ppl bond so thats cool too.

 

Not standing implies only one thing...you didn't stand. Making things out to infer what they were never meant to infer is what gets mankind and society into the problems it's in.

Sadaam said he didn't have WMD, Iran says they are not making a bomb, but sure as hell some people are going to make inferences from body language.

 

My piont was...I wasn't singling out heath car or Cuba for that matter.Canada ,France,Britan..among other places have universal health care.I know this..Thats not the piont.
Just as I said to the boy.No offence.Although its hypocrtical for you to be forced or detentiond for simply refusing to say the pledge.That is a right as and American.
There are far worce issues to get worked up about and far more important issues to discuss.But in a country where our children are being singled out and punish for simply expressing thier rights as an American.How are we suposse to ask people to care about
people who are not American.Its true our lives are a piece of cake compared to other parts of the world, but we dont care about whats going on in our own front yard.Teenagers are living thier own war right in our own country and we cast them out and count them as another statistic.Until are people are made to face the issues that exist in front of us we will continue to ignore whats on the other side of the world.
Are country stands and is based on what I believe to be the beginning of a great people.People are ment to be free.Its envitable I believe that .This is a stepping stone to something better.Our constitution was writen the way it was so that it could be fixed and molded as time changed..
In the hopes that it would grow to eventionally reach everyone..
It will never do that if we grow to comfortable and content.To say that our country is already at its greatest, is denieing your children and grandchildren the right to be greater than us and isn't that truely our greatest Idea for our future.


It takes disaproval to bring about discusion.
Descusion produces change.


So that hopefullly someday we will reach the world.

In order to face a mountain you must conquer the hill.

Expressing disapoval to my government, and expecting them to be held liable for their action is not a lack of patriotism..
The last sentence of my first message.To really be heard make sure waht you say is respected and taken seriously..Know more than your problems .Know everyones problems.
in other words broadin you horizons..Explore the world,and listen to everything.Everyone.
Sorry should have spelled it out for you.
Oh and crimes on humanity are going on right on our boarders..Still know one cares.Thier to busy with their day to day lives.Its just less stressful if they ignore it and tell everyone shut up and they are antiamerican.Give me a fuckin break.

Its not just where you travel that makes you wise in life..
It lifes experiences and the lessons you learn from them..That brings you closer to understanding people that makes wisdom GROW.

 

I'm not saying in the least that the OP or you, Shatarag, are wrong. I agree with the fact that there is much left to be done. But like you said yourself, "Know everyone’s problems" this includes, if one makes such a grand statement as "once I’m 18 I'm leaving this country," then perhaps the OP (if they haven't already done so) should enlighten him/herself as to what lies outside of our shores. It is easy to idealize matter
and believe that somewhere out there is a better place. But that's exactly what a great deal of youths say about America wherever you might go.

You are absolutely right in saying that it is life experience and the lessons you learn from them that give a person wisdom. Where did I indicate otherwise in my post?

I've been homeless, I've seen the bottomless pit of perversion, friends dying, addictions to every drug known to man, teen prostitution, child abuse...etc etc etc. But if there's anything I've learned from what I've experienced personally it is to remind oneself that things aren't always as gloomy as we make them to be
And keeping a cool head and assessing a situation for what it really is, is often most affective and often the best way to go.

I suggested in my original post that the OP take greater and clearer measures...
"hand out pamphlets, talk to people etc..." (i'm paraphrasing), like somebody else said on here... what is sitting down at the pledge of allegiance going to prove? The only thing that’ll prove is that you're sitting down, nothing else... that teacher doesn’t know that the kid has deeper thoughts on the subject or some reasoning worth debating... Then the OP gets sent to the principals office because the teacher thinks he's being a lazy jack-a** for not standing up, if at all (as stated elsewhere on this post kids that have done it mostly got away with it without a problem)... and what have we accomplished then? This has nothing to do with fascism man... it's just common practice in the US to acknowledge allegiance to the flag... as several other posters stated - when they or their kids refused, nothing happened. Who's to say it will here? You, Shatarag, are already drumming up a fight where there is none...and for what??

Yes I believe in change. Yes I believe that we have a long way to go. I do not agree with everything our government does. But I also believe in the American Dream. Does that make me a stupid patriotic drone???

Small example... in Paris, France, round election time kids took to the streets in protest and caused a ruckus heard around the world...cars burning etc. In the Republic of Ireland youths our age...countless numbers... have given their lives for the dream of a free and united Ireland...etc. etc. etc.

And we're debating if it's a good thing or a bad thing if this kid sits down for the pledge, while, if he were to simply enlighten his fellow students/teacher of his reasoning as to why he's practicing his rights as an American (the same America being pledged allegiance to mind you), he would probably not only get away with it, but it would probably get him a pretty good grade in History or Government class if he were to voice his opinions literally. Yet some of us here are arguing about this as if it's something to rally and break down the white-house over.

Anyway...

Please remember this is a debate and I honestly in no way intend to hurt anyone's feelings...I too...am simply practicing my rights to freedom of speech.

~Amadeo
www.myspace.com/thevagabondtroubadour

 

I stand up and recite up to "one nation indivisible", but then I sit down before they say "under god". I get some weird looks. I've also sat through the whole thing, but most people stand and say it though.

Yeah, I'm an atheist/agnostic and I want to restore the pledge to the way it was before the 1950's. It's not a big deal to me, and I don't think my little protest has amounted to anything, but I like to be different. Plus I know a hell of a lot more about the history of the pledge than any of my classmates or teachers so when I get challenged I can defend my point a lot more ably.

 

Im not starting an arguement.I du know maybe your male 23yr old temper might have something to say about that.No pun intended..
I got married very young and have 2 kids..My exhusband and I were married for 7 years.We can not define someone elses experience in life.Thats not right...Anyone who looks at me sees just some little blonde who has it made.Because I have a nice car and a nice home...They dont realize I was kicked out at 15...Have taken care of myself a deadbeat, and my 2 kids all by myself.Since the age of 15...Sure I've made mistakes I had know help from the adults around me.I grew up in a life where knowone cared.Except my father.Who was a single father since I was 3 months...To look at me you would say "what does she know"?To talk to me you would really be suprissed what you could learn.
Most people look and judge first without realizing that we cant judge a persons experiences or lack of them from there first view.
I said the exact samething...Only different words..Shorter statement.The only statment I have diagreed with anyone on the page was the statement ANTIAMERICAN.
The people out there that want freedom to cease to exist so that they continue to persicute people and inslave them.They are Antiamerican.Not a young boy barley breaking into adult hood...Still trying to figuir out what he believes and where he stands..
You need to read the whole thing mieho.
I simply told him to reach out to other people get your thoughts together,and know the issues so you can be heard..Thats not an arguement sweety.
Read closer thats an Allie.

 

Shatarag, darling... who's the one pointing fingers here? As far as I knew we were simply having an intellectual debate. Next think I know you're throwing around phrases like "Give me a fuckin' break"... then you start up this stuff about "maybe your male 23 yr temper might have...blablabla"... haha... as far as i'm concearned I have nothing to talk to you about if you're gonna be so immature about it. I wasn't judging you in any respect, simply addressing an intellectual topic...you're turning this personal and everything you're telling me not to do is exactly what you're doing yourself. This is getting completely off topic and I have no intention of arguing with you. I already said everything I wanted to on the topic that this was supposed to be about.

One Love,

~Amadeo

 

I think that we agree. I was warning the OP against making assumptions about those who will confront him. If the OP is not open to hearing their actual concerns, but instead answers the concerns he imagines them to have, the conversation will go poorly.

The OP should show the same openness and respect that he wants to receive.

 

That I agree.
I feel like its very important in the times we are in.........
To be very open minded,and listen with very open ears...
Everyone spends to much time worrying about thier own problems...
Not enough reaching out to someone elses problems..

 

Theres a teacher at my school that threatened one of the students for not saying it and she told him that its a law in MO that kids have to say the pledge. She was way wrong, because me and a freind looked it up for proof.

At my school, hardly anyone says it. Most dont because of the whole 'under god' bit, but I choose not to because I pledge allegiance to the universe as a whole and not one little country. I just stand up and use the time for some good stretching to wake up for the rest of the day. lol.

 

Actually it doesn't. Have you ever read it. What it actually says is, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" It meas that the US Government cannot establish by law Christianity (or any other religion) as the official religion of the US. That means that you are free to practice your religion and you are free to not practice any religion. Also, while it gives you freedom of religion, it does not give you freedom from religion. Meaning that while you may not be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, etc, you're not guaranteed to not be exposed to it.

 

I stopped saying the pledge when I became politically aware, and became conscious of all of my rights. Around last year-ish.

I stand up during this daily ritual, but I never say it.

Sometimes I sit down, it just depends on how rebellious I'm feeling.

Peace and Love, John.

 

Of course it provides for separation of church and state how else do you explain the situation with the ten commandments being moved from in front of a courthouse in alabama a few years ago??? The courts made the governor move them to a non-state property area. So if thats not separation what is?? Sounds like you have been living with your head in your ass quite a while. but anyways if you have a problem with figuring out where you went wrong maybe it was opening your mouth in haste to criticize instead of to debate. Dont assume correctness when there is clear evidence to the contrary. ANd as for bongwater and his childish remark. You have the right to believe you have a soul but in saying that and im paraphrasing here " glad mister biology major came back from the dead and cleared that one up for us" If i dont believe in a soul how could you make a remark about coming back from the dead which would imply that i did indeed have a soul to be reincarnated or at the very least an essence if not a soul which is in my view the same word for load of shit. So in your criticism of my belief you were thoughtless in your sarcasm.I suggest thinking sarcasm through it works when it is witty and actually makes sense.Until your next rebutles i say PEACE out everyone.

 

_I just stand up. Say Power to the people (quitley) throw out my arm. My best friend next to me say right on. And then I stand there.
Peace

 

One of my favorite pastimes was making up my own words to it till I just wouldnt stand from my desk anymore and then they would just make me move my desk out into the hallway as the rest of the class had their morning dose of Kool Aid.

This was back in 3rd grade. The tests they gave me at the Shrink they sent me to to figure out why I wouldn't drink from the trough with everyone else said reading comprehension was at or beyond HS level at that time, I guess they were right because I distinctly recall thinking to myself that I really wasn't very famliar with these people and that was alot to be swearing to at such a young age.

Still I told them I would slit my wrists if they ever tried forcing me to take the Ritalin and Lithium and the rest of the crap they wanted to test on me back then. It did the trick to get them off my back at least.