Safer WITH, or WITHOUT, Gun Control? USA -vs- UK

ahh a peccarie didnt realize thet were that far north!
always thought they were a rodent! like a huge guinie pig lol!
they good eatin?

 

I prefer the fact that I own a handgun. If someone sees my plasma and tried to rob me while carrying a gun I would shoot em dead without a second thought.

 

Actually, i'm pretty south ~ South Texas!

And YES! Javelina are PLENTY good eating ~ leaner, by far, than pigs and even wild hogs, yet without that super "gamey" taste.

 

Fy

To me this subject has more to do with an ideological mindset and all this statistical mumbo jumbo is just a distraction, I’ve been through it in detail in the previous threads I’ve linked to please check the stuff about statistics and there misuse and abuse with special reference to international comparisons.

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=189921

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...=231360&page=9

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/s...d.php?t=253937

To me it goes nowhere because it has much more to do about interpretation than ‘fact’ I came to understand that after a year of such a discussion when often the same information could be seen several ways to support several positions.

I think it was Disraeli (or was it Twain) who said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

This was why right wing strategists, like Karl Rove, used to want to keep the debate on ‘god, guns and gays’ because they don’t really go anywhere produce much more heat than light and distract from real social and economic problems.

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So this is much more about mentality and attitudes than so called ‘evidence’ because people with certain attitudes and mentality were likely to view things in certain ways.

So the most relevant and interesting thing you said in the original post was that you thought the reason why pro-gunners are concerned with their society’s problems and feel they need guns for protection is because they think the government is making people violent?

Can you explain?

*

 

*coughs*

You're wrong Wendy. The idea of buying, learning to use, and owning a gun is not abhorrent to me. I have fired rifles several times and have learned to use them.

I completely disagree with your views on Gun Control Law and don't accept your links to pro-2nd amendment blogs as sources of unbiased data. Your math skills fail. You say that there is a difference between the way that the UK collects violent crime data, and yet you fail to acknowledge this when you make your claims.

I am finished discussing this with you. Good day, Wendy.

 

just look towards the history of russia if you think tightening access to guns is a good idea as far as iran goes, it's not them openly threatning to nuke people. it's the other side making all of the threats. on the other hand, it's those who keep threatening iran that are known for having LOTS of nukes.you should fear your fellow man more than you fear firearms. a gun can't squeeze it's own trigger. why would Iran want to use nukes against Canada? if you were constantly being threatened by the west, because the only supposed democracy in the middle east wants to grab your oil reserves and territory up. you'd constantly be on the defensive too.

 

Ah, the ol' defense card.

Countries are allowed to build up their arms and weapon technologies in the name of defending themselves, and citizens are allowed to build up their arms and weapon technologies in the name of defending themselves.

Pre-emptive defending one's self...

I do not support this.

 

THAT was in one of the links, and, like i said before,

if we can't trust the countries OWN way of reporting crimes,

(perhaps) bearing in mind that each will certainly want a lower number for violent crime,

then i'm not sure where you can get any facts, in the way of figures to support or refute your position...

i used the UK's British Home Office, for their actual reported violent crimes,

AND for the survey.


i used the FBI for our violent crime stats.

Sorry if you don't feel that you can trust those sources,

but that's the best i had to use.


Bottom line is,

you are 5 times MORE likely to be the victim of a violent crime in the UK

as you are in the USA.

And, Balbus? My remarks about more government causing more violence was just an observation ~ i haven't fully researched the issue, it was just imho. Sorry about the confusion!

 

5 Times? Show me. Stop pulling magic numbers out of your arse Fyrenza.

 

:lurk5:

twas kinda enjoyin the previous discussion perhaps it can be picked up here

On this point I had stated that this little podunk town is too small of a sample to make the point that arms are the governing factor of any towns crime rate or safty. I am sure that everybody knows evrybody else and all of thier business there.

Let me intorduce a morals factor, that illegal guns and illegal gun crime are moral failings. That a moral quality is a factor in crime rates and gun crime. Gun crime is very bad karma.

The thread had not explored the big diference between legal, licensed firearms and illegal weapons.

The American gun debate is also a City Party vs Country Party issue with ubrbanization a huge factor in attitudes and enforcement.

I did read some statements as to economic factors being a part of gun crime. This idea was not fully presented or developed. I would be interested in discusing and reading ablut the economic factor of gun crime here on this thread.

Very soon Hip Forums will be celebrating the big goth hoilday of April 20th. I loathe the thought that people can celebrate a day that Colombine High School was shot-up by those two problem children. Its also Adolf Hitlers birthday. The moral factor means rejecting the celebration of gun glorification.

I was in a friends room the other day and saw a big wall poster featuring The Tony Sopranos, Marlon Brando and cast, as The Godfather, Joe Pesci, Ray Liotta and Paul Sorvino as The Goodfella's, and front and center, Al Pacino as Tony Montana in Scarface. The poster featured weaponry and bad boy posturing.

Outrage about guns should be more than an excuse to beat up on Republican farmers in rural Red States.

Here in New Jersey it is very dificult to purchase a handgun. The Applicant has a waiting period, Has to apply with his local police chief and needs signatures or references of persons attesting to his sanity and judgement.

Four years ago, I signed such a testimony for my neighbor. In February, he blew his own brains out with his gun.

A healthy, handsome 30-something single guy, owned his own contracting busines. had money in the bank, hobby cars no big indebitness. a suicide, Lonliness. He was all alone in the world.

Gun debate is valid debate.

 

..................................................................................................................
My Dear Balbus:

you sound a bit world-weary from the firearms debate. I sense you feel it can be repetitous. May I suggest visiting: Stoners Lounge were you can note all of the
" Oh Wow, check out my bong" threads.
Perhaps you will come back refreshed. Ready to address the topic with renewed vigor.

Its kinda like Neil Young sang in Are You Ready for The Country.:

Leftin and a Rightin its not a crime you know You gotta tell your story boy before its time to go.

Besides; there are always new people comming through Hip Forums. Look at just how many months the: Blonde-4-Your Party and Lost in a Novel scams went on and on.

I'll even bet that Molly The Hippy is out there foolling sombody new right now.

The new people can benefit from your positions.
:biggrinjester:

 

.

 

Is this thread nothing but old guys and egos?

Why don't you all go buy sports cars.

 

Look Up Kennesaw, Georgia. 25 Years ago Morton Grove, Illinois made handguns illegal. In response Kennesaw, a small city way out on the outskirts of Atlanta, made handguns mandatory. Every head of house in Kennesaw Georgia must own a gun and take shooting and gun safety classes. Since then, 25 years, no one in Kennesaw has been killed by a gun.

And because I believe we should all back up our claims;

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n15_v46/ai_15729634/

http://www.rense.com/general9/gunlaw.htm

 

the "elite" your speaking of is our founding fathers, the best and the brightest who left great Britain, didn't trust the government and wanted protection from a overly zealous ruler of the land. The 2nd amendment was made so that is the queen of England tried to kick down your door you can blow her face off and have it land somewhere over the pond. The same goes for corrupt politicians and criminals.

I don't solve my problems with violence.

 

I take karate, are you against that?

 

Well this study is mad old(going on 8 years) but in 2001 this was true:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902
http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/guncontrol_20010302.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html

But it's nowhere near 5x, though it is a large increase over the US, but, there is one area of crime that Britain is just beating the entire world at:

This study poll is substantially more recent
http://www.gallup.com/poll/21346/Crime-Rate-Lower-United-States-Canada-Than-Britain.aspx

But speaking in a general, I still just call attention back to this piece because I think this journalist summed it up perfectly:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7359513.stm

We're really not a violent country. For all the guns going around America is a rather tranquil and friendly place. We just tend to breed all the crazy nutjobs.

 

One must remember that Britain's gun control has only very recently been touted (or enacted) as a crime control.

Britain has for centuries used gun control (first masquerading as game protection laws) for political purposes and the subjects are used to it.

Of course back in the 1600's arms in the hands and free speech from the mouths of commoners were considered the precursors to sedition. The laws disarming those deemed unworthy worked back then (or more likely the enforcement and brutal punishment for violations worked) and things went along quite well.

Today, as crime control, not so good.

Back in '05 headlines screamed, "Up to 4m guns in UK and police are losing the battle"

It hasn't gotten any better!

Firearms: cheap, easy to get and on a street near you

 

If we criminalize guns, only criminals will have guns.

 

Amen.