Sharia Law

I'd be more encouraged if there was some movement towards liberalisation in places like Saudi. But there is none, as we see with the ongoing case of Raif Badawi for example.

Also little sign of any change in Indonesia or most other Islamic countries.

As long as western governments continue to cosy up to brutal dictatorships who export and fund terror, I don't see how they can say they are working to end extremism.

Last time I checked, Kurdistan had one of the highest rates of female genital mutilation on the planet. Wiki says up to 72 % of Kurdish women affected. so I don't think they are exactly a shining example of progressive values.

Copy and paste from Wikipedia:

Female genital mutilation is prevalent in Iraqi Kurdistan, with an FGM rate of 72%[154] for the entire region and exceeding 80% in Garmyan and New Kirkuk. In Arbil Governorate and Suleymaniya Type I FGM is common; while in Garmyan and New Kirkuk, Type II and III FGM are common.[155][156] There was no law against FGM in Iraqi Kurdistan, but in 2007 a draft legislation condemning the practice was submitted to the Regional Parliament, but was not passed.[157] A 2011 Kurdish law criminalized FGM practice in Iraqi Kurdistan,[158] however this law is not being enforced.[159] A field report by Iraqi group PANA Center, published in 2012, shows 38% of females in Kirkuk and its surrounding districts areas had undergone female circumcision. Of those females circumcised, 65% were Kurds, 26% Arabs and rest Turkmen. On the level of religious and sectarian affiliation, 41% were Sunnis, 23% Shiites, rest Kaka’is, and none Christians or Chaldeans.[160] A 2013 report finds FGM prevalence rate of 59% based on clinical examination of about 2000 Iraqi Kurdish women; FGM found were Type I, and 60% of the mutilation were performed to girls in 4–7 year age group

 

Relevant background info. Fuck Kurdish culture.

 

Barbarians.

With friends like that who needs enemies?

 

Unfortunately, the American media has not mentioned this point.

 

Same in the UK. I was actually shocked when I read about it, as the Kurds are being portrayed in the media as moderates. My guess is that if they were to defeat IS, they'll start agitating for an independent Kurdistan which would then lead to more trouble, especially with Turkey.

 

Blake

Exactly what I’ve being trying to explain.

For example US policy toward Saudi Arabia was dictated by the Saudi’s been anti-communist and having oil, politics and economics.

For those reasons in my opinion mistakes were made, I’m just hoping similar mistakes will not continued to be made.

So in your view they are just the same as ISIS and so fuck them all, is that it?

And just because I want to support the secularism of some Kurdish groups does not mean I support female genital mutilation, you can understand that can’t you?

I am not saying the world is perfect or ever will be I’m not a utopian, I think that the human races should aim for utopia, but being humans I don’t believe they are going to achieve it unless they evolve somehow (and I think the machines will take over a long time before that )

And things don’t change overnight, do we throw up our hands and say ‘they are all the fucking same so they can just fucking stew – or do we try to help by throwing our support behind those groups that are trying to make a difference?

 

^ I'm saying that the culture of the Kurds which allows FGM is another aspect of Islamic extremism. I can't see how backing one group of extremists against another, even if they are 'less extreme' can be any kind of solution.
Same goes for our other 'allies' in the region who practice their barbaric forms of punishment and repression.

 

[SIZE=11pt]The issue of female genital mutilation has been reported quite a lot in the UK not just its practice in the Middle East but elsewhere like in Africa (and in the UK)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]But relating to the Kurds -[/SIZE]

The new suffragettes: The Kurdish woman fighting against female genital mutilation
[SIZE=11pt]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/the-new-suffragettes-the-kurdish-woman-fighting-against-female-genital-mutilation-8640310.html[/SIZE]

"If they mutilate my granddaughter? I’ll kill them’. Meet the Iraqi village ending FGM
[SIZE=11pt]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-health/11447304/FGM-in-Iraq-The-Kurdish-village-ending-female-genital-mutilation.html[/SIZE]

 

[SIZE=11pt]Blake[/SIZE]

Are you saying all Muslims are extremists?

That all Kurdish men gleefully agree with FGM?

This is the gross generalisation that I’ve been trying to warn against that just encourages hate.

Oh yeah…all of them are barbarians, barely humans, none of them are worth helping, let’s just kill them all.

 

That seems very likely.

 

Yep – as I said in the - Back to Iraq? - thread about the options open to US policy makers

Assist the Kurds and give them guns and equipment

Turkey hates the Kurds more than it does ISIS and you need Turkish help. The Kurds would say thanks and take over the land they conquered (they do dream of having their own state). It would piss off both the Sunni and Shia and the Kurdish government in Iraqi Kurdistan may be a little too left wing for US government tastes.

[SIZE=11pt]http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/467636-back-to-iraq/[/SIZE]

*

When i said Turkey in that statement i meant the government lead by the Justice and Development Party (AKP) maybe with the HDP now in parliament things might change.

 

Some Muslims are extremists. I never said all Muslims. I did say I consider Muslims to be the primary victims of Islam. I do think that Islam is a pernicious belief system.

If as many as 72% of girls are being mutilated, one has to assume that a good many Kurdish men and women do agree with the practice. That isn't a gross generalization, but something one can easily deduce by common sense. If something this big was happening to 70% of girls in the UK, you would be safe to assume that the same reasoning would apply.

the word 'barbarian' doesn't mean someone less than human, or barely human. It only applies to different levels of culture and civilization, and the general ethics to which they subscribe. Thus we say that in Europe, the 30 years war saw barbaric acts of cruelty. Same for most wars.

I consider the punishments prescribed under Islamic law to be barbaric. People who carry them out and enforce them are barbaric. Those who watch and shout 'allah akbar' while a man is flogged for blasphemy or some other 'crime'? Make up your own mind.

I think I've made it clear over and again that the idea of killing 'them all' isn't something with which I agree.

 

[SIZE=11pt]I am not saying the world is perfect or ever will be I’m not a utopian, I think that the human races should aim for utopia, but being humans I don’t believe they are going to achieve it unless they evolve somehow. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And things don’t change overnight, [/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]So do we throw up our hands and say ‘they are all the fucking same so they can just fucking stew – or should we try and help by throwing our support behind those groups trying to make a difference?[/SIZE]

As a history buff and a member of Amnesty international I know how barbaric humans can be toward each other. Should I take from that that all humans are irredeemable barbarians unable to learn or change?

In the UK a hundred and fifty-five years ago buggery was punishable by death, 55 years ago male homosexual sex was illegal and punishable by imprisonment and now we have gay marriage.

Although we do still have people who claim any storms are gods punishment for such tolerance.

 

Blake

Thing is you seem to be saying that since FGM takes place amongst Kurds we should not support any Kurds not even those Kurds who are against FGM, because the culture of the Kurds which allows FGM is another aspect of Islamic extremism. I can't see how backing one group of extremists against another, even if they are 'less extreme' can be any kind of solution

One group - eg the group is Kurds and their is only one of them and they are all extremists.

 

Here is an interesting article from stop FGM –

It begins

Female Genital Mutilation occurs in non-Muslim societies in Africa and is practiced by Christians, Muslims and Animists alike. In Egypt, where perhaps 97 percent of girls suffer genital mutilation, both Christian Copts and Muslims are complicit. Thus, it has long been concluded to be a cultural practice, not connected to religion.

However, on the village level, those who commit the practice offer a mix of cultural and religious reasons for the practice. Christians and Muslims alike believe that circumcision of girls prevents them from vice and makes them more attractive for future husbands; mothers fear that their daughters can’t get married if they have not been cut.

Read on here -
http://www.stopfgmmideast.org/background/islam-or-culture/

 

Abject stupidity, at which humans excel.

 

"circumcision of girls" google search is probably the most creepiest of child porn mutilation ... hold on the FBI is knocking at my door brb or not...

 

What I can't fathom in all of this is that it genuinely appears that you, Balbus, are defending such acts of violence and other atrocities perpetrated by these idiots.

If so you are simply trolling the forums and have no place being a moderator or there is something seriously broken in your brain.

oh and happy belated 4th of July to you Balbus.

 

You are characterizing the conversation here with a false dichotomy, as though people here are from two camps; one which is hopelessly idealistic and utopian, and the other which is at best indifferent and at worst genocidal.

But nobody in this thread holds any of those views, and your entire contribution thus far has been to panic and raise alarm bells at perceived ideologies. I think maybe this is a sensitive issue for you, or you are very tense or something.

The prevailing attitude in this thread is that:

1) Islam as a religion, even moderate, has major issues within it that pose serious barriers for it to be a possible player in any kind of global civilization.

2) Radical Islam is a much more major and immediate problem, which may threaten the lives of all beings on the planet thanks to nuclear weapons.

3) Actions need to be taken against radical islam that do not make the fixers as bad as the problem (NO genocide, thanks)

4) Moderate Islam needs its hands held in order for it to step the fuck up and take a stand against radical islam.

5) An analysis of previous points leaves one with the distinct impression that the line separating moderate and radical islam is actually extremely tenuous; and the basic values and worldview of islam is itself a huge yoke around the necks of billions of people.

6) Nobody wants a genocide, nobody is racist, and nobody wants to prosecute thought crimes.

7) We are not a collection of Rhodes Scholars with CIA clearance, so our inability to suggest viable solutions does not imply that this is a hopeless situation, and somewhere between shrugging our shoulders and embracing Shariah, and turning the middle east into a glass bowl, there is very likely an entire spectrum of solutions to be explored.

Hopefully this helps you understand

 

Gas

Oh come on man just try and back that up with things I’ve actually said - because the ONLY way someone might think that is because they hadn’t read my posts or wished to misrepresent them on purpose.