Slowly Dying

To approach it like an animal would be to lick the keyboard and huff and grunt a little. There is also no way any of us can see that you are approaching the idea like an animal because you are using very human, language based arguments, and cannot try to "argue" the idea any other way. They only way I can reciprocate in my understanding is simply by saying "I get what you mean" or "I feel what you mean" but that would mean nothing and would prove nothing...all you can say and should have said from the get go is this:

I understand this in a very animalistic and non-logical sense and there is no point trying to argue about it.

But argue is what you did, using both very logical arguments and disastrously trying to mix them with unsubstantiated ideas about your own feelings. You are too egotistical to see past the fact that your own "feelings" or "ideas" are just as culturally ingrained, language based or self created as those of everyone else, however you choose to believe that they are somehow the result of some extra-conscious animal like thought. ALL of us have been lost in time before. I lose track of time all the time. I get lost in song, thought, sex. I often in my own time also forget that time exists. I remember what it felt like to be a child and not take it very seriously...still, I knew the sun was going to rise, and it was going to fall as well, in succession. You're not special pavel and I think I know just what you are talking about...it just cannot be argued, or proved in a logical sense.

How do you know what a dog's perception of death actually is? Does it cause suffering? Does a dog go to die in the woods because it instinctively knows that it should do it, or does it have a conscious knowledge of the fact it is going to die? I think Elephants, probably even dogs, and especially Dolphins and Apes are quite likely conscious of the idea that they will someday expire...because it can somewhat be proven by their behaviour. In fact it has been proven by talking to Gorillas through sign language. Still, how do you know their idea is any different to ours? How do you know the true nature of their knowledge, the very essence? You don't. You just assume.

I cannot profess to be able to think like an animal. I think perhaps that I may have that ability at times, however I will never give myself a Hi-five for my seeming ability to do so, nor will I ever try to evaluate my ability to do so (evaluation being a product of petty conscious thought) because I cannot prove or explain it to anybody else, only feel it.

We are simply talking on two different levels here, both of which we understand, however you are unable to stop from swapping between the two when and where it suits your argument.

 

that is why i want to meet you foolz.

alas, we are so far apart, but dean and i are wanderers, we will meet if the forces allow it.

 

Yea
Aura and I are sort of stuck for the time being, with the baby coming and my parole running its course.
Now thats a situation in which time feels all too real

 

I understand this in a very animalistic and non-logical sense and there is no point trying to argue about it.

I'm merely trying to explain it, not to argue about it.

You make way too many assumptions about me, and as the great Steven Seagul said in "Under Siege II"..."Assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups".

I've never claimed that my ideas step from "extra conscious animal like thought".

They step from rather sober, human thought, you simply have to approach them differently in order to understand them.

I think that you should trip acid or something, I think that you'd be much closer to understanding what I'm getting at. It might seem like a cop-out, but believe me, there is something to this.

I never claimed to know the very nature of their essence, I simply know that they are more primal than we are, closer to their instincts than we are, and closer to nature than we are. It doesn't take much to know this.

I do think that I can go back to being an animal though, at least somewhat. We call it, being "primal". It's more of a joke term, but there's a lot more than that to it. You simply let go, and truly experience, without any thought... it's somewhat hard to explain with words.

All in all, I don't see how I'm swapping levels, but I do agree that we are on two different levels here.

 

Yes I agree, try some acid! Much smoother than mushrooms if the dose is right.

 

hmm, why are you on parole? i don't think i know that story...

i can't believe your baby is coming so soon. awesome

 

Long story of course, but I plead guilty to hit and run, even though I walked into the court room under a much less serious impression.
Dude ran into my car, in what I believe was a suicide attempt, he hit my back drivers side window and I didnt stop, drove another 2 miles to my hotel and called the police from there.
The police report and insurance report listed the dude as the cause of the accident, and the detective seemed to be understanding. But of course I made a horrible mistake, one which I dont think should reflect on my person for the rest of my life as a felony, but that's how it be lol. Im just thankful I didnt have to go back to jail for any serious vacation time.
EDIT - the guy did not die by the way, he's still around

 

damn... mad shitty. i hope that ends without incident... how much longer is your parole?

 

I do see how you could see me as egotistical though, dear Face.

I am not the type of person who argues for the sake of arguing. If I enter a discussion to such an extent it is only because I do think that I fully understand what I'm talking about and because I do think that I'm right in my assumptions. The internet doesn't leave much place for humbleness and such characteristics. You always see me talking about something, and acting like I know it all, simply because I comment on the topics that I do believe I understand. I think that it's this way for all of us. The internet isn't always the best path into someone's character.

 

Lol I dont even know, I think its 2 more years but Aura thinks its just 1

 

I understand what you "feel" and have had to do a lot of thinking and meditation as a result being ill these past few years and as a result I think I have reached an understanding of certain things that I may have been able to while on acid, but its impossible to gauge. All I know is that I have discovered layers of consciousness, dual realities etc. that cannot be explained with words. Interestingly, looking at reports of acid trips I have read, I can remember lots of reports of such phenomena being given colours and physical symbolisms, words even.

I feel as if you're trying way too hard to establish why you're understanding of these concepts unique to "animal like" thinking is superior to mine, whereas I think our understanding is not that different. Its just that I don't feel that I can take a sneaky shortcut around the rules and try to meld these ultra-conscious subjects, with language based arguments. My assumptions about your personality are a result of my complete bafflement as you would try to profess to understand something better than I can which is independent of language and this argument altogether. Maybe its wrong of me to try to pinpoint your motives, but I am truly baffled as to why you would try so hard to argue something which cannot be proven logically, logically. I should not try to fill in the gaps, but just stay baffled.

 

Thankyou. I don't think its a bad thing, even if you are. :cheers2:

I also agree with your comments. Internet arguments tend to get far more heated and confusing than they do in real life...quite possibly because they are so bogged down in words.

 

Acid is just a whole other world. Pretty much literally. Nothing can be compared to it.

I'm not trying to argue or establish anything. I'm merely trying to explain a concept to you. I'm not saying that my understanding of anything is better than yours, I don't think that understanding, especially of concepts like these, can even be measured or compared. It's all very personal.

It's only a tad frustrating for me because it all makes perfect sense in my head, and I guess that I expect for it to make sense for others too, simply because it is all so clear to me. I guess that this only means that I should learn to explain it even better. I think that it's a concept that would be better introduced in person, while on 10 hits.

All in all, this hasn't been a bad discussion, even though it eventually led nowhere. At least the whole slowly dying part was somewhat established. I don't even remember how we got into time and all this.

Now I must go and finish watching Seinfeld because I leave for college on Friday and still have half a season to watch till then.

 

This has sort of been like an episode of seinfeld.

I wouldn't say this discussion has gotten nowhere. I think we are just a little closer to understanding our own beliefs and in that way it was fruitful.

Have fun dude. Perhaps when I visit the US next year you guys can introduce me to the void.

 

I hate when Im not around when the discussion is happening!!

I think that's a very good way to put it.

 

My mind is not as clear as last night, but the way I see it is...

The present is all we have, the moment lives and dies simultaneously (just like us). Past and future only exist in the now as ideas. As humans we "live" in these three stages of time, but I believe that the acceptance that time is just a concept and now is all we have takes us closer to our instincts.

 

I think nature is the best example of intelligence, but do you feel it need to come from something of significance for it to be intelligent?

(My cat is asleep in the couch and he just farted. The pain! It's hard to concentrate)

I feel like even thinking of nature as sparking out nothing, chance, a random even that came into being. I still think that the way it creates and destroys, the balance that exists within itself, the cycles, the order (to me nature is very organized and for a random event to be so organized is pretty fuckin awesome).

Although I also do think I see it like that, because Im putting myself out of it, as a viewer, when Im another piece of the puzzle. And Im taking myself out to look in, but Im still inside of it.

Blah, I told you guys my mind was messy today. I hope that made some sense.

 

I used to think that there was something that existed outside of nature, but I cant no longer see it.

 

I hate when you do this! Actually I love it, but you do it way too much. Im left smiling with nothing to say, but that's a good thing, in real life. Over the internet it just makes me feel dumb and/or boring

 

I certainly agree with you and pavel, but I just don't understand how something that is so instinctive and outside of language can actually be argued about...hence my confusion. I hope that my practices in meditation in the future (and my hopeful lsd trip) will bring me closer to a greater understanding of this.