Slowly Dying

I would argue that only one thing causes suffering, and that is life & being alive. Life is struggle, and struggle involves suffering. Humans and other animals all suffer just the same, especially other animals. Life in the wild is rough and only the strongest survive, as you know.

I think I see your point, subtle though it is. All animals, humans included, must be aware of their own mortality in order to encourage them to hurry up, grow up & have some kids. That is, after all, the second most important thing in life, after surviving. So yeah, in this I agree with you, I think - buried deeply in all animal minds must be the knowledge of death, otherwise there would be no sense of urgency to reproduce.

But once we realize that life is actually a slow death, while we may still fail to know how to die, do you think such a realization might finally enable us to truly live?

 

I'm still not sure if you fully understand what I'm getting at.

Because this isn't it, even though it connects, yet not on the same level:

...and this surely isn't it...

 

Your use of huge fonts is really annoying. Are you trying to be Ivy or something?

I think you REALLY dont get it and it's so simple. I could understand you disagreeing with the idea, but from what you've said, I dont think you're understanding. I dont mean to offend you or anything, I just dont think you're seeing it for what it is.

We await death in the sense that we dont realize that we're already dying and think of death as something we'll experience "later" (reason why we suffer), instead of being aware that is already happening and the wait it's for its conclusion, not for its beginning.

 

Lets get this straight pavel, and do it simple.

You can see from your original post and by how people have reacted to it, that it "appears" that you are implying, or that the song is implying that there is some innate desire within us to die.

Now, I have said that I disagree with the idea, simply because I don't think that you can prove there is any subconscious or instinctive desire to die, and any conscious desire to die (other than the result of a delusion like wanting to see god) would generally result from wanting to avoid suffering. My argument is that we can accept that suffering is unavoidable, and that this desire to die will inevitably fall upon us at many times during our lives, but it is not deeply ingrained...and that we can both subconsciously and consciously fear death, and have a desire to live....therefore suffering can be a result of NOT wanting to die.

 

Well, yes, live is basic cause of suffering, and there are different kinds of suffering within life, but yeah, it's life that's the cause.

I also agree that humans and animals all suffer the same. I wonder if the animals are more connected to this internal "biological" suffering, since they are obviously more connected to their animalistic nature that humans.

You question is a very good one. I think that the realization that life is a slow death, even on a subconscious level, could be the driving force behind life itself. I am not saying that is it, for I don't claim to know such things, but it could as well be. As you've said, this realization forces us to reproduce and so on, it only makes sense.

 

I'm sorry, its a nice, simplistic and interesting way of looking at things, but life and death are two entirely different states of being...or not being. In a sense, there is quite a clearly defined line between the two, and therefore the principle is absurd from the get go.

You are the only person who does get it. Go over the thread, its just you.

I think the reason being that the only way you can get it is to apply some abstract philosophical concept to it, such as the fact that we are "dying" (whereas I think the fact that we one day "will die" is more realistic)...and myself and everyone else just aren't willing to do that. In a sense, we're not using our imaginations, but we're not necessarily wrong either.

 

Not necessarily a desire, but more of an innate understanding of the fact that we are indeed dying.

I do understand that you disagree, and as I've said, this is not something that I hold true, it's just an interesting idea. I am supposing, for the sake of discussion, that there is indeed such an understanding of the fact that we will die within us, and base my explanation on that.

I am not arguing against you. I agree that suffering can be a result of not wanting to die. But I also think that there is a deeper sort of suffering within all of us, one that's not connected to our thoughts or feelings, a suffering that cannot be distinguished or avoided by any earthly means.

Yet again, I am not saying that we desire to die, but we do desire to end the suffering.

 

I disagree with this too. I think that death and life and so interrelated that at times it's hard to distinguish the two. Death is merely another aspect of life, and life is merely another aspect of death, if that makes sense.

 

I think "desire" is a poorly chosen word. Awareness would be a better choice.

Is it an especially hot day in Adelaide today?

 

"Awareness" would be just the right word to use.

 

I'm not talking about nature or biology and death, or the "big picture" - I'm talking about single sentient beings, and that is what this whole thread is about. I'm talking about "being and not being" or "existing and not existing"....

I totally agree with you about death and life being intertwined, great concept, but not relevant. Keep it simple.

 

So you are not in fact saying that we desire to die, which the word "await" implies, which is why for half this thread people have been arguing with you.

 

This is indeed relevant, because this thread is not about single sentient beings, but about mass sentient beings, if not all sentient beings.

 

How does "await" imply desire? Maybe that, too, was a poorly chosen word, but it seemed clear, to me at least, that there was no implication that all creatures desire death.

 

"await" does not mean "desire"... well, maybe down there in Aussie land.

It means "to be awaiting for", or so. It has nothing to do with desire, it simply has to do with acknowledgment of existence and forthcoming.

This is why people like Jimmy and Ili understood it right away.

 

I know it's just me. I was going to suggest to Pavel that he should post this in the LSD forums, as he would probably get more interesting responses. Not because I think the people here are dumb or anything like that.

You see to me, the idea that "we will die" is an illusion and the idea that we're dying is reality. I understand how you can not see it that way, but I find it very silly. To be aware that we're dying doesnt keep us from living, on the contrary, I believe it lets us appreciate what is.

I also dont think that Im using my imagination to think this way. My nick on msn a long long time ago used to be "I'm dying", because I am and you are, so is everyone else and everything else, but we live until the process is complete. Everyone would ask me "What's wrong? Are you sick?", I would say "Im alive, therefore Im dying. Life is the ultimate virus".

 

See, this is the problem dude. While you may have some brilliant points, and while I might be not getting some of them, you're way too fused with these epic, abstract concepts which stop you from seeing exactly what I was saying.

Forget the mass. Forget the big picture. Forget everything you know about life and death and nature. Forget all sentient beings, and lets get back to the point.

I'm talking about our own death. When we CEASE TO EXIST. Our own mortality. In which life and death, are two very distinct things.

 

Haha. Well-played

 

how do you know that? death could just be a never ending dream. in which case we are dead every night.

 

Apparently I have a dark sense of humor