So... about that Mueller investigation

Discussion in 'Politicians' started by 6-eyed shaman, Mar 23, 2019.

  1. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    M, you have nothing to apologize for … not one bit.
     
  2. Meliai

    Meliai Members

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    Um. You dont have to be charged at the conclusion of the investigation to be charged as a result of the investigation. These people had multiple charges brought against them during the investigation as a direct result of the investigation.
     
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  3. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    That's inaccurate. He found tons of evidence. What he didn't find was sufficient evidence to convict a sitting president.
    You have to understand what evidence is. Evidence isn't conclusive, evidence is one factor when charges are being considered.

    Mueller said Trump did not criminally conspire. But he and or his buddies did collude. You have to understand the difference between those two terms.
    Examples:
    Manafort met with Konstantin Kilimnik who has ties to Russian intelligence to discuss a Russian plan to control Eastern Ukraine.
    That's collusion.
    Donald Trump Jr met with “the crown prosecutor of Russia” because he promised “to provide the Trump campaign with documents that would incriminate Hillary.” That's collusion. Mueller didn't indict because he felt Junior was too stupid to know what was going on.

    Moving on, he tried to obstruct the inquiry at least ten times:
    1. Tried to get Comey to end probe of Flynn.
    2. Fired Comey.
    3. Tried to remove Mueller.
    4. Pressured Sessions to limit Mueller.
    5. Look the rest up, I'm reaching my word limit.

    Now Mueller didn't indict Trump on obstruction because he was restrained by DOJ policy, not the law.
    He suggest the House and Senate look into Trump's dealings because they can make a determination by law.
    And....they don't need to prove he did anything illegal at all.
    All they need to say is that he is unfit for office...which anyone with half a brain already knows.
     
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  4. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    Can't you research this yourself?
    1) George Papadopoulos.
    2) Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team,. He was sentenced to a combined seven and a half years in prison.
    3) Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner.
    4) Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser, pleaded guilty in December 2017 to making false statements to the FBI.
    5-20) 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign.
    21) Richard Pinedo: He was sentenced to 6 months in prison and 6 months of home detention in October 2018.
    22) Alex van der Zwaan: He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and has completed his sentence.
    23) Konstantin Kilimnik: This longtime business associate of Manafort and Gates.
    24-35) 12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were charged with crimes related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’ emails in 2016.
    36) Michael Cohen: In August 2018, Trump’s former lawyer pleaded guilty to 8 counts.
    37) Roger Stone: In January 2019, Mueller indicted longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone on 7 counts.
     
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  6. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    You must by now understand that Mueller only had authority to charge people in a very specific area, or he could refer to another office of the DOJ. All his charges had to be approved by Rosenstein or Barr, or the charges had to be presented for congressional consent.
     
  7. Vanilla Gorilla

    Vanilla Gorilla Go Ape

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    Oi, so much wrong with that

    First off give me the US federal legal definition if collusion Hint: Thats a trick question.

    Your words: Mueller said he and hus buddies did collude.

    So he would go to the federal attorney general, or one of the state attorney generals with "he and his buddies did collude"?

    Sort of obstructing the inquiry kind of isnt the same thing as the actual definition if obstruction of justice. Cant actually be charged with that if you have never been interviewed and there is no actual record beyond third party heresay of what he said
     
  8. Vanilla Gorilla

    Vanilla Gorilla Go Ape

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    Ok, do this list again, tell me what they all got charged with, which convictions stuck, and which jurisdictions wherevthe charges brought.

    Pinedo got charged with identify theft, fook has that got to do with this, the sentenc8ng you listed there is inaccurate, and tell us all where he got charged
     
  9. Vanilla Gorilla

    Vanilla Gorilla Go Ape

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    Course I know, thats why Im playing with them.

    Especially things like lying to the FBI, charges and convictions have nothing to do with Mueller and co
     
  10. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    I don't understand the limits of Mueller's authority. I do know he sent the Cohen case to the Southern New York people. There is that secret bank case which is owned by a government of another nation. Barr pulled Mueller off that case before he was done. Mueller prevailed in the supreme court and Barr still pulled him off the job. It did fall within Mueller's authority. That case will not remain secret much longer.
     
  11. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    As I've said many times, there is no federal crime of collusion, which is why Mueller didn't find it. There's a federal crime of conspiracy, but that requires a showing of specific elements including wilful intent, which is why he didn't recommend charging that. Yet there is evidence of collusion in the report--not criminal to be sure, since there is no such thing. Congress is not constrained by the U.S. Statutes in finding impeachable offenses.

    Before you hang out your attorney's shingle, you might brush up a little more on U.S. law. Sworn testimony about what a person heard from the source is admissible evidence. It wasn't hearsay, because it wasn't a third party reporting something somebody told him. If Trump said it directly to them or they were present at the time and they relayed it to Mueller or a grand jury, it isn't hearsay. Mueller didn't pursue the charge of obstruction, because it was Justice Department policy not to charge a sitting President. The failure to subpoena Trump was based on deference to the executive office and realization that that would mean a prolonged legal battle. Actually, attempt is a crime, and there is plenty of evidence that Trump attempted to obstruct but was restrained by his subordinates. Mueller provided an open invitation to Congress to pursue that. Interesting that the Mueller report documents massive Russian interference in our election and a culture of shocking deceit and attempted coverups in the White House, but because there are no criminal charges brought, it shows nothing--case closed. Are you okay with that kind of a presidency. I suppose you might be, since you're not a U.S citizen and don't have to live with the consequences.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2019
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  12. Vanilla Gorilla

    Vanilla Gorilla Go Ape

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    Fairly useless evidence by itself though
     
  13. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    From a prosecutorial standpoint, yes. But Trump's poll numbers have already fallen a little, and much will depend on what the House majority does with it, what else they come up with, and what the prosecutors come up with in New York..
     
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  14. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    As Okie stated there is no crime of collusion, which is also what I've been saying. But there is a process of collusion, which is what happened. Collusion doesn't have to be an illegal activity.
    Mueller was not an Independent Counsel, he was a Special Counsel, subject to the confines of the Attorney General and the DOJ.

    Now I'm reading the entire report, but it takes awhile as I'm also baby sitting a two year old, but here's a few examples of collusion:
    I'm going to stop here because it's Easter and I have things to do.
     
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  15. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    When people have a difficult time absorbing clear information there might be a serious medical reason involved.
     
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  16. Vanilla Gorilla

    Vanilla Gorilla Go Ape

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    Gallop poll for Presidents job approval rating:
    and comparisons with previous presidents


    Presidential Approval Ratings -- Donald Trump

    I dont see anything particularly alarming for Trump, 45% at the moment, slightly lower than Obamas average, but higher than Reagan and Carter
     
  17. deleted

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  18. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Well, the poll numbers have been remarkably consistent--much more so than for Reagan and Carter--since he took office, ranging from 35-45% with a mode of 42%, never a majority, with sizeable majorities of disapproval. He was elected by a minority of voters and has been consistently a minority president, governing for his base instead of the American people. An average doesn't capture that pattern. It's also interesting that the poll report you cite ends on April 9. I mentioned that the poll numbers dropped after the redacted Mueller report was released, from 40 to 37%--a new low for 2019.
    Poll: Mueller Report Sinks Trump’s Approval Rating To New 2019 Low – Rolling Stone
    Trump approval drops to 2019 low after Mueller report's release: poll
    Trump approval drops 3 points to 2019 low after release of Mueller report: Reuters/Ipsos poll - Reuters
    We'll see how long that holds, and whether his minority of Troglydites and Russian trolls can carry him over the finish line once more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
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  19. Flagme15

    Flagme15 Members

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