Stop! Don't buy the Christmas' tree this year!

Ah calm down with your religious stuff the way you put it's scary.

Try abstracting a bit more maybe.

 

Grapefruity
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I can't calm down, and I don't think that the way I put it is scary!!! , it was nothing but the truth, and as a believer I should do thisè (write such threads as a reminders)
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I don't know what is your religion or belief.
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Allah has said (Quraan):
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1) '' Therefore remind (men) in case the reminder profits (them) ''
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2) '' So remind them, for you are but a remembrancer. You are not a dictator on them '' '' you are not at all a warder over them''
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3) '' And remind, for verily, the reminding profits the believers.''
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4) ''… your duty is only to convey (the Message), and on us is the reckoning.''
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5) ''Then, if they turn away, your duty is only to convey (the message), in a clear way''
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O dear Lord, I did my duty.
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Quraan: And Salih turned on them and said : O my people! I delivered my Lord's message unto you and gave you good advice, but ye love not good advisers.
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Quraan: Or say they: There is a madness in him? Nay, but he bringeth them the Truth; and most of them are haters of the Truth.
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Quraan: We verily brought the Truth unto you, but ye were, most of you, averse to the Truth.
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Quraan: … they follow but a guess and that which they themselves desire, whereas there has surely come to them the Guidance from their Lord.
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Deuteronomy 6.17: Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. And thou shalt do that which is right and good in the sight of the LORD: that it may be well with thee
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Jeremiah8. 4-8: …declares the LORD Almighty.' 4 "Say to them, 'this is what the LORD says:" 'When men fall down, do they not get up? When a man turns away, does he not return? 5 Why then have these people turned away? Why does Jerusalem always turn away? They cling to deceit; they refuse to return. 6 I have listened attentively, but they do not say what is right. No one repentsof his wickedness, saying, "What have I done?" Each pursues his own course like a horse charging into battle. 7 Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. 8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? 9 The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have?
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Quraan: … Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest?
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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But was it corrupted? Islam says yes, others say no.
If it's partly corrupted only, then it would be difficult to ascertain which bits are reliable.
'The Bible is corrupted' is a line I've heard before from Muslims. I think they have to believe something of the sort because of the contradiction between the Bible and the Koran. Islam says Jesus was a prophet not the son of God, Christians insist he was. Muslims counter by saying that this belief comes from a corruption of the texts. But frankly, it is absurd to say that everything in the Bible regarding Jesus as son of God is corrupt. If one takes that position, then you may as well chuck out the Bible completely.

As for choc angels - blame chocolate manufacturers. Like Bob Dylan said:

'they make everything from toy guns that spark
to flesh coloured Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
Not much is really sacred'.

Myself, I don't really see choc angels as blasphemous. It's just another bit of Christmas bullshit. Surely a child is better off eating a choc angel, which may remind then of real angels than a plain bar of chocolate?

 

BlackBillBlake
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Nope, isn't Islam the only one who says so, the bible itself say that, plus Christiansè (VIP, i.e. famous), if you want I will quote for you.
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Especially if this is a non-Muslim's belief in the bible, then yeah, it is too difficult.
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And as I said previously, Muslims do not need any other scriptures to base their faith on, either in full or in part.
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- Dear brother, I have the bible, in many different versions, myself, I didn't find a verse which says that at allè that Jesus is God, but I can find that he was a prophet!
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- Numbers 23, 19: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent… beloved Jesus called himself several times, '' son of man'' * Quraan: (Behold!) when the angels said: O Mary, indeed Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word [Be! And he was! - i.e. Jesus] from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary… è we Muslims call Jesus the son of Marywho is a human herself, while in the current 4 Gospels he is called Jesus the son of man. Myself I didn't find a verse in the Gospel where Jesus called himself the son of God! Plus you read in Luke 4.41: And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak è why? : For they knew that he was Christè is this the reason! What's the wrong if they knew that? Did Jesus expect that if he will call himself the son of God, people after his ascension will use this as a proof that he is the son of God literally? Matthew 15.7-9: … well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, … in vain they do worship me, however, the Hebrews believed that God is one; I think that the expression ''son of God'' mean to them'' Servant of God'' i.e. the one who, because of his faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to a father, even if Jesus has called himself '' son of God'' it is a metaphor, I already wrote a thread for explaining this metaphor with biblical evidences.
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Yup, they should distinguish between the metaphors and non-metaphors.
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- plus, there are other Gospels like Thomas, Barnapas etc, you read in Barnapas, Chapter 94: And having said this, Jesus said again: `I confess before heaven, and call to witness everything that dwelleth upon the earth, that I am a stranger to all that men have said of me, to wit, that I am more than man. For I am a man, born of a woman, subject to the judgement of God; that live here like as other men, subject to the common miseries.
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Here is a link were you can read the Gospel of Barnapas, and download it freely. Click here
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- And if Jesus is really God why did he state: John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Fatherè (see he said father not the son or the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father!). Ye worship ye know not what:è (he meant Mithra probably , Christians are worshipping Mithra and they don't know!, for more information about Mithra click here and read posts #121 & 122 ) we know what we worship … and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father … for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Indeed Jesus had prophesied that people will worship him uselessly and will believe in doctrines not made by God but by menè (Paul)
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Matthew: 15: 3: But he answered and said unto them, why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? ….But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
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Acts 17:18… He è (Paul) seems to be advocating foreign gods.
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Quraan: Is there any God beside Allah? Say: Bring your proof, if ye are truthful! I did my precious Lord.
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Quraan: Say: O People of the Scripture! Exceed not the limits in your religion (by believing in something) other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of
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a people who went astray before and who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the right path. When I read this verse I remember Paul =(
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Recommended Reading:
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Click here to review this book online!
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Pagan Roots of the Trinity Doctrine
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The Apostle's Creed
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The Nicene Creed
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The Athanasian Creed
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Come on! We can remind them with other better ideas!! * sigh* the bible itself doesn't respect the prophets and God, so I won't surprise if its followers won't respect them as well =(, I really can't imagine myself eating such chocolate, O Lord, I am really so sorry for this, forgive us all, Amen.
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Quraan: they have not estimated Allah His Rightful Estimate
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Quraan: They made not a just stimate of Allah such as is due to Him.
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Yours Sincerely,
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Sad Cat Stevens
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God and Son of God are different terms.
Check Matthew ch.16. verses 13 - 17 - there in clear black and white it is said he is Son of God. And not a prophet.

Now - maybe this is one of the bits that's been altered - maybe it's not.

 

BlackBillBlake
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They say that God is three but one, i.e. God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit, they are 3 but one! The son of God is a God too! He is the son of God and God as well, that's what they say, check my thread [Is God 1 or 3? ] and I will quote for you some of what they wrote:
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☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼
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Yup, I already said, that the son of God is a metaphor and I wrote a thread regarding this issue and I supported my view (that the son of God is a metaphor) with several biblical verses, Click
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He was a prophet,
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1- Matthew 21.11: And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.
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2- Matthew 21.45-46: And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
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3- Mark 6.3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him. But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.
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4- Mark 6.15: … And others said, That it is a prophet, or as one of the prophets.
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5- Luke 7.16: And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.
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6- Luke 13.32-34: And he [Jesus PBUH] said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Oh!
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7- Luke 24.13-27: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he [Jesus PBUH] said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he [Jesus PBUH] said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people…Then he [Jesus PBUH] said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken…
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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So - when the Bible says what you want to hear - ie Jesus is a prophet, its ok, but when he is said to be Son of God, that is some kind of metaphor?

You're just sticking to the orthodox Islamic line I guess.

 

Black Bill Blake
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You didn't read the link which I posted regarding this metaphor probably! I proved this with biblical verses!
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• Adam the son of God (Luke 3: 38)
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• Israel is My son, My first-born (Exodus 4: 22)
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• The Lord said unto me, thou art my Son; this day have I begotten
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thee (Psalms 2: 7--KJV).
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• Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God John: 1: 12
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• Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
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(Matthew 5:9)
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Tracing this title “son of God” in the Bible, we can find many “sons of
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God” and that Jesus is not the only son. It can be concluded that the Bible uses this title “son of God” figuratively to mean righteous, pious, selected. And if it isn't a metaphor, then we should consider Adam, Israel, David etc his sons as well literally! If the Christians worship Jesus because he is the son of God, why they don't worship Adam and the others whom are God's sons as well?
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John 8.32: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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A good point. It's because Adam, who was a son of God fell when he sinned, and all the others you mention were tainted by that sin. Jesus is said to be the 'second Adam' - a man without sin. The one sent by God to remove the 'original sin' of Adam and Eve, and thus reconcile man and God.
That is what they believe.
NB this is not my own belief. I am meerly stating what christianity says on the matter.

 

BlackBillBlake ​

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What are the biblical verses which give the above belief or concept, please write the name of the chapter and its number.​

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Isn't the speaker above is God the Father?​

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So Adam and Eve were responsible for their own deed, ​

Quraan: then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardon him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One who accepts repentance, the Most Merciful.​

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Matthew 5.17:Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. ​

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Matthew 7.1-2:Judge not, that ye be not judged.For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.​

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1 Corinthians3.8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.​

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Quraan: Did you (O Muhammad) observe him who turned away… is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees? Or is he not informed with what is in the pages (scripture) of Moses… that no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another. And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad)​

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Matthew 19.14: But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heavenèdoes that mean that everybody is born without sin and all children belong to the Kingdom of heaven? But when they grow up and understand then they will be judged according to their deeds!​

YoursSincerely,​

CatStevens​

 

As I've said, I'm not a christian so I don't really feel it's for me to spend ages going through the Bible to come up with verses. However, I think that what I said in my previous post is a fairly accurate summary of christian, or at least catholic doctrine.

The idea is that in Genesis, God tells Adam that if he eats the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the punishment will be death. After the event, God relents, and lets them live. Christ then apperars later on, and his death is seen as the punishment due to Adam. Because it was Adams sin which brought all humanity into conflict with God, the price paid by Jesus on the cross is seen as sufficient to redeem all mankind.
If you want to go deeper into this with quotes etc. you'd need to get an actual believing chistian to give them.

 

BlackBillBlake
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If it is really like this, then they have to prove that from the bible, Myself all Christians that I have met, no one of them proved thatè (their belief of God etc) to me until today! Even from the 4 Current Gospels and Torah!
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I don't mind to discuss these issues with anyone. Any time any where…
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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I agree it's very hard for christians to prove this, as the Bible contains many contradictions. But also, it seems to me as an observer that many christian beliefs are not from the Bible directly but stem from tradition. Thus things like the assumption of the Blessed Virgin bodily into heaven have no origin in the Bible, but are dogmas believed in by millions of catholics.
This is a big part of the reason that I am not a christian.

 

BlackBillBlake
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=(
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Quraan: And whoever invokes (or worship) besides Allah, and other god of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord.
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Quraan: Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say: bring your proof…but most of them know not the truth, so they are averse
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Quraan: … is there any god with Allah? Say: bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful.
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Quraan: … and those who worship and invoke others besides Allah, in fact they follow not (Allah's so-called) partners, they follow only a conjecture and they only invent lies.
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So, if you don't mind, what is your belief then currently?
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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I don't like to define it too closely. I think there is a spiritual power behind things, but I don't think any of the major world religions are very close to it - indeed, I'd go further and say that they represent both a hangover from past ages, and a threat to the human future. No one of them has any chance of becoming a world dominating religion, so as long as people are stuck to following them, I see only more and more conflict. Nor do any of the major religions seem to be addressing the main problems we face in this century - climate change and environmental disaster.
Just now, I was listening to the news, and Iran is starting up its neuclear bomb programme again - presumably with the intent of wiping Israel off the map as per the recent statements of the president. Yet all claim to worship the same God. To me, this is insanity. It has nothing to do with God.
On the other hand you have christian fundamentalists who believe it's the end of the world, and a Pope who condemns millions in Africa to AIDs because they won't allow contraceptives. Again, there is no basis in the scriptures for this.

There is a song by the Grateful Dead - 'Blues for Allah' it contains the line

"what fatal flowers of darkness spring from seeds of light"

And that is my take on orthodox religion.

I am a humanist with an interest in spiritual matters. I'm interested in looking at things impartially, and from a variety of angles.

 

BlackBillBlake
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No there are who are doing this, I saw their activities, like books, articles in the newspapers, lectures, etc, *sadly* but yeah, they don't have the ability or someone to spread and post their addresses or to help by making their addresses reached to the others
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Eh! Policy, the most thing I hate because the leaders of policy "most of them" just behaving childishly, however, Iran said several times about their intent, but Israel explain it this way, and the president explained his meaning yet no body as it seems declared it!!! However, I don't want to discuss policy here. I really feel so much pain *sigh* wow, if I will become a president for one month!
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And this is the truth, they are worshipping the same God, but some doesn't follow his instructions, here is the problem, I mean the Muslims, Jews and Christians, there are among them who aren't following his instructions, they follow the commands which they like it!
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Quraan: … Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest?
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Quraan: corruption has appeared on land and sea because of what the hands of men have earned (by oppression and evil deeds), that He (Allah) may make them taste a part of that which they have done, in order that they may return (by repenting to Allah, and begging His Pardon / return from their sins to monotheism and obedience etc)
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Quraan:
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Or say they: there is madness in him? Nay, but he brought them the truth, but the most of them (the disbelievers) are averse to the truth. 71: And if the truth had been in accordance with their desires, verily, the heavens and the earth, and whosever is therein would have been corrupted! Nay, I have brought them their reminder, but they turn away from their reminder.
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Quraan: And indeed I gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And I gave Jesus the son of Mary, clear signs and supported him with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Gabriel] . is it that whenever there came to you a messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant ? Some you disbelieved and some you killed.
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Quraan: And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: '' this is lawful and this is forbidden" so as to invent lies against Allah
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If they will follow every command, the world will be in the utter peace. However, this day will become anyway, by Jesus return and Muhammad Al-Mahdee's coming. Yeah, I am waiting this day =)
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Oh dear, Bill!!!!! Ask him on what he based that! I will give you an example:
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Actually you can find this prohibition has been added in the Quraan somehow, do you know how, when Allah commanded us that whatever harms you then you should must leave it to don't harm yourself and harming yourself is prohibited in Islam.
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Dear brother Bill,
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Some Christians say: we are the right true Christians, some Jews and Muslims are doing the same! It is easy to know who is the truthful! For example, the vampire Osama says that he and his followers are the truthful Muslims!! While they are killing innocent people which is Haram of Harams in Islam!!!! So whenever somebody claims to be the true follower of his religion, check up on the matter, is he basing his deeds on biblical or Quraanic verses! Or actually, he is following his desires!
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Do you believe that there is a God?
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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First - yes, I do believe in a god - but not as depicted by popular religion.

Second - the problem with saying we should follow the commands of the scriptures can be illustrated by taking an instance from the Bible. In the old testament, it is reasonably clear that god is encouraging and helping the Jews to 'ethnically clense' the land he's given to them. He commands them to do it, and even makes the sun stand still (an impossibility) so they'll have more hours of daylight to prosecute their vile murders.
There are other stories too, such as mass mutilation of the bodies of fallen philistines, and so on.
Given all this, and many other contradictions, such as a god of love who demands a bloody sacrifice of his only son, I don't think we can take these ancient texts as a reliable source of guidance. They were all written under quite different conditions, in times when humans knew very little about the universe we live in. They don't even begin to address today's problems. On the contrary, they seem to me to be a major source of trouble in the world.

 

Cat, the do not worship the same god. Jews, and to some extent Christians, worship Yahweh, Muslims, and Abraham, worshipped El Shidai, or Allah.

Dont give Yahweh that much credit, Allah is the true father god of Abraham.

But you cant believe that, because the Koran says otherwise, so oh well.

 

BlackBillBlake
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Thanks to Allah =), so happy to read this.
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The point dear brother is that we should understand the bible correctly, and we can know if this verse is true or corrupted when we find another verse which contradicts it, God isn't racial, myself I like Neturei Karta's explanation of God of the OT, I read few of their explanation or interpretations, by the way they are a Jewish group, so, if Jews will set together and discuss the biblical verses and explain it depending on biblical verse not on the personal views, it will be so fine. So, the problem is when they explain the bible according to the personal views which contradict with some biblical verses! it is too clear that the bible is corrupted and I can prove this, however, when it is clear that it is corrupted then they should examine each verse, yeah, I know that some don't consider it corrupted, but it can be proved to them, myself I met some of those who don't believe that it is corrupted, and when I show them how it is corrupted, do you know what they say! It was uncorrupted once upon a time! So, when they reach this conclusion then they should examine it. Or if they won't reach this conclusion then they should interpret the verses rightly with proofs which support their views and interpretation. Neturei Karta's group believes in the OT, why they aren't terrorists or murders! Why they believe in peace! We should listen to them too, to know is this their own personal belief or according to the God's commands of the OT. And we have to know what their reaction or interpretation regarding some verses like the verses which you were talking about. So we shouldn't blame God or the God of a religion according to its followers deeds, it is better to check by our selves whether is their God really commands them to do such thing or no. the bible itself says that it has been corrupted as I posted some verses formerly.
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Neturei Karta (Aramaic: "Guardians of the City") is a group of Haredi (Ultra-Orthodox) Jews, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta .
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YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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heron
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El Shidai ???
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Allah stated in Quraan:
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say (O Muslims), '' we believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and to [the offspring of the twelve sons of Jacob] and that which has been given to Mosesè (Torah) and Jesus è (Gospel), ….''
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Allah is the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims, and the God of all the creatures according to my belief, I can prove this, but it need to write voluminous book to prove it, however, there are biblical prophesies regarding Muhammad and the nation of Muslims yet they don't believe in it or rather some of them don't know about it or didn't noticed it, Allah has revealed the Torah to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus yet they have been corrupted by the hand of men, then God revealed his last Book the Quraan which he promised to save it from corruption and he did.
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Yahweh is one of God's names according to the OT, actually Allah has many names. Christians and Jews believe this as well, that God has many names.
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Links:
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Allah's name in the Bible! Textually, literally! Photostat
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Unlocking 'Y.H.W.H' + ''Jehovah'' code! The puzzle of their meaning and reality!
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More other names of God in the Bible
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YoursSincerely,
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CatStevens
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