When I was a kid I learned to lie to my parents to minimize the severity of the beatings in progress -- my mother was (and if she's still alive still is) a psychopath, so the surest way to minimize the severity of a beating was to falsely confess and convincingly feign more pain and terror than I actually felt. When I became a rebellious teenager, though, I swore that I'd never lie again and have been fiercely and at times irrationally devoted to the truth ever since. My wife, also, does not lie. I've known her since 1978 and have never heard an untrue thing pass her lips. It's one of the many things I greatly admire about her. Neither of us do as our mothers both do and try to use truthfulness as an excuse for malice, as having grown up around venom spitters we understand how painful words used as weapons can be. Still, we often have to caution people that they shouldn't ask us questions if they don't want honest answers -- yes, I'm afraid to say, those pants do make your ass look fat. Since getting away from my parents, I've not ever been harmed by speaking only the truth (or remaining silent). My marriage is soundly based on honesty and trust, my associates know they can always trust me, and those who might wish to profit by deception know better than to involve me in it. There's just no downside to it in my life.
The only true "downside" to a situation where one feels as if one's chosen ethical construct is better than that of another, is the fact that the person has a tendency to become "full of oneself", and feel superior to others. This is the inevitability. I also grew up thinking that dishonesty was one of the most counterproductive characteristics, as I grew up in a generation where the powers that be were anything but transparent, including government, business, etc. (Gee,,things haven't changed much). My parents were professional opera singers, and had a tendency to feel somewhat "above" others of lesser "stature", which I disagreed with. I developed a dislike for anything other than "the truth". I carried this so far as to reject humor, as humor wasn't, in my eyes, "the absolute truth". I was a very serious young man, and intolerant of humor. I imagined myself a practicing Zen Buddhist. But here I am, 62, and have begun to realize that my streak of natural "honesty" has also caused much damage, as I have hardly an ounce of diplomacy in me, and can easily offend. Just read any of my posts in, for instance, the "Trayvon" thread, or the "Living on nothing (after being spoiled for years)" thread. You will see how dogged I am in arguing for "the truth" as I see it. This characteristic may be seen as commendable by some, but highly offensive to others. I have been, as a result, portrayed as, variously, a "bigot", "combative", and many other things. In a situation, for instance, where one side is getting more than their fair share of "air time", I most always choose to jump in to defend the possibility that the other side might just be telling the truth. It is just that I believe in getting to the root of things, and finding out "the truth", diplomacy or "political correctness" be damned. I have no room in my heart for diplomacy, and my wife suffers as a result. Just try being the "in your face with the truth" kind of person in a healthy marriage. My wife wants appreciation. I consider it a form of "babying", and don't put forth much effort to "be something that I'm not, by nature" (which I see as a form of "dishonesty"). You can see how this could cause problems between us. It's not that I don't appreciate her, but I don't see the need to "be dishonest" and put on a "front" to go out of my way to "display" a character that does not come naturally to me. Therefore, I see this "self-evaluation" of "the honest person" as a fraud, in a sense. It can become simply an excuse for being nasty, irritating, and mean. I'm beginning to see how much we all value the way we see ourselves, at the expense of others. This is why the human race is so divided today. Self-esteem mixed with the habitual despising of others we do not see as similar to ourselves. Not a good mix. I would even say that it is the PRIMARY dividing factor common to humanity today, ironically.
What about serious omissions that are so common in journalsiim? How about cherry picking data or scientific studies?
I try to not lie, though I may be stingy with the truth. I will lie if I percieve it to be for a rightous cause. So never to people I respect or care about. In that case, I would simply tell them that I can't/won't talk about whatever it is.
Remember, as well, that attorneys, on both sides of a case,,prosecuting AND defense attorneys,,they BOTH claim to be just "telling the truth", or "relaying facts", however selective each of them is in presenting their side of the case. Sure, they might be USING "the truth", or "the facts", but using them to TELL A LIE!!!, and we all know this too well. One side lies using facts on behalf of the defendant, and the other side lies using facts to convict the defendant. We also, as "honest" as we claim to be, have personal bias, personal preference, even if only subconsciously. We imagine ourselves the last bastion of "truth", and yet we select WHICH "truths" are to be utilized in promoting our "righteous cause". It's just another form of lying, whether you like to admit it to yourself and be "honest" with ourselves or not. Some of us aren't even honest with ourselves, and that's called DELUSION. So, my summation is,,that having heard all of this "posturing" going on in this thread, each asserting their alleged "superiority" to others who "lie", in the face of their "brutal honesty",,I just have to say,,I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. It's just another sales pitch, dudes and dudettes. I see this form of assumed "honesty" as just another excuse for being caustic whenever one wishes, in the name of "truth". Fuck Me.
There is no honesty involved when a person tries to excuse hurting another by claiming "I was just being honest". In that context, honesty is involved only as a word employed in a sentence completely devoid of truth. The honest truth would be something like, "Yes, I have hurt you and I have done so intentionally. I crave the feeling of power that I derive from dominating and humiliating people, particularly those closest to me. It is a feeling more satisfying to me than the best drug or the greatest orgasm, and I will rarely if ever deny myself that satisfaction when I find an opportunity to take it. I cannot feel sympathy for you or remorse for causing you this emotional pain because as a despicable weakling you deserve it. I will not apologize or feel guilty for being the stronger and more righteous of us". The truth is that honesty and empathy are not mutually exclusive, not in the slightest measure. If they were, then psychopaths who are by definition devoid of empathy would be the most honest of people -- but in reality they are the least honest of people. Here in our tiny mountain valley town my wife and I are known to be both honest and compassionate and as "that friendly old hippie couple who walk everywhere holding hands". There's nothing at all wrong with being honest all the time if you respect the feelings of others while doing so. People appreciate, respect, admire, and commend that.
I'm honest. I'm also friendly,,and in being friendly, I'm sometimes not as "honest" as the next guy, who isn't as "friendly". I agree with your assessment. However, I married in a religious cult. We've been together for 40 years. She and I still don't see eye to eye, and "honesty" gets no reward. Any time I divulge to her a private matter, she makes it public, simply as a "bargaining chip" to gain other's appreciation. I wish it were not so, but I've gotten used to it. As a result, I live a life of frequent frustration. I can't treat my own wife as a "confidante", but rather, have to stay guarded in some ways, unfortunately. I don't fault her for it, however. I just attribute it to her upbringing, always seeking advantage over others, like her mom and dad, perhaps, but with her own twist. You guys are fortunate to have the relationship that you do.
Oh, man, I feel ya. I had one of those in my second wife. She was a real life destroyer, that one. Nothing of my life was sacred to her. It got to where I didn't care about my own life any more, quit hoping for happiness, and just satisfied myself with those rare moments of peace that I could find. Her two favorite phrases were "We need to talk" and "I'm just being honest". They were her book-ends for an emotional thrashing, and both were shorthand for that long statement in my earlier post. She's not the first, last, or only one I've known who used that "just being honest" avoidance of accountability line, or the one who used it most masterfully, but she was the one I married who did it. Life would have been much less complicated if she'd hauled that line out just once before the wedding, but at that point she just wasn't being honest. It's natural for a feeling human being with knowledge of another's past to take it into consideration and make reasonable allowances. I don't know any other way, myself, and I'm really glad for those who make allowances for me without calling attention to it. I hope I don't ever cause them to question how reasonable those allowances they're making are. Yes indeed we are. I don't suppose anyone has an easy time of figuring out where he belongs, but despite our best efforts we managed it. There's not a day that goes by in which we don't acknowledge our great fortune at least once, usually several times. Speaking of that fine woman I finally got around to marrying 24 years after the first invitations were dated, it's about time I crawl into that three acre waterbed with her. Be well!
Honesty isn't as cut and dry as it seems. It all depends on the circumstances. I found my honesty got me into deep shit many times, and hurt others many times. In other times, lies have hurt others, and got me into deep shit. Most of the time honesty is the best policy, but sometimes you have to know how to keep your mouth shut or how to tell a lie. It all depends on the bigger picture...
Lying to protect someone isn't beneficial to all parties.. you may think that it's a 'good lie' to lie to protect your friend from the police, but it's a bad lie for the people whom own the car your friend broke into and smashed up the night before. Just putting that into some kind of perspective, I guess
there's a hundred and one reasons regarding how honesty can get you into trouble. consider an emotionally intelligence person they act out of empathy effective communication and social skill and self discipline. sometimes it's best to save an opinion that might be unfavourable as lying could save another persons pain which begs the question who are you being honest with perhaps yourself? if this reasoning is wrong then surely the antecedence of emotional intelligence and integrity it's flawed.
A hundred one reasons but I asked for an example. You can't name one single situation you were in when you did this?
it happens all the time. you can convey just about anything with statistics. so it's up to the consumer to use their judgement and decide what they want to believe. all ethics aside, many of those journalists probably just want to get paid like everybody else. since they have to answer to their supervisors, they do what they do. sometimes you just have to be skeptical.
you didn't ask me lol :mickey: but since you have... let me just instill this much ethics and morality consider what is good and what is bad perhaps good vs. evil so what 'gets us into trouble' is a predeterminate of something bad it is unmoral. so even telling your sister her new coat is horrible when the truth made no greater good to the situation is immoral. the action - to put it your way is troublesome.
I don't agree with lying to "protect someone". People always deserve to hear the truth, even if it isn't necessarily what they want to hear. I sometimes think I'm too honest for my own good, but I don't think lying is ever justified.
"i want to have sex with your ten year old daughter?" excuse the crassness. but what about the relationship between moral and legal ethics?
I don't have a ten year old daughter, but if I did, and I knew a man who secretly wanted to have sex with her of course I'd want to know that. And I think most parents would want to know that too. You can never truly "protect" someone by lying to them. I'd personally rather be hurt and know the truth, than be in blissful ignorance of a fact and being made to believe something's okay when in reality it's not. What are you talking about? Relationship between moral and legal ethics?
