terminations: in what circumstances does the male have a right to a voice

Then I suggest you never have sex without a condom, and more importantly, never have sex with a woman who you distrust or couldn't see yourself raising a child with. Birth control can and does fail. Often. Even condoms can fail. Sex, in a biological sense, is a means for reproducing. This means children. Every time you have sex, you take that risk. It is a responsibility you assume.

As far as child support goes, my closest experience is my partner's experience. 30 years ago, before he was even concious of their family arangment, his parents divorced. His father was ordered to pay child support, but barely ever fulfilled that obligation. (And it was a ridiculously low amount, too, like $100/month) His mom never went back to court to force the dad to pay, because the amount was so low it wouldn't have made much difference. Now, Ian hasn't seen his dad for about 10 years. They have ZERO relationship. Looking back on it, he wished his father had been forced to pay - not because it would have made much of a difference, financially in his life, but because from his father's perspective there might have been and "investment" perceived, a cause to check up and be involved in in his son's life.

Sorry, I'm OT here, but I couldn't resist replying.

 

Simple, her body. If she wants the baby, she has it. As for "Child Support" MikeE seems to totally understand what this means. It isn't money for the mother.

AMEN, Brother!!!! Thank you, Mike.

In Child Support, there is no risk of death, bleeding, injury to the man's genitals, no risk of having a major abdominal surgery, no 24 years or more of constant vigilence, watching a child grow and caring for it..........there is nothing expected from many child support situations except opening a checkbook. NO ONE can compare this to parenting. It is not "Fathering" consider it an 18 year tax on not using a condom. (or, if one who will 'never give the mother a cent" a tax on not immediatly getting a vasectomy.)

Fathers care, help, walk the floors, assist in labor, bring the baby in the middle of the night for feedings, rock, learn to discipline a teen, worry, love and nurture. Biological donors write checks.

 

So? He won't live long enough to make up what he ducked out of as a Dead Beat Dad. His children most likely lived in destitute poverty, while he did whatever he wanted with his money. Big deal. I hope they get as much as they missed..............and taking inflation into the equation.

 

I think fathers should be have a say anytime they are willing to raise and support the child. If the mother doesn't want a child then the father should be able to decide if he would be willing to take on the full responsibility. This shouldn't have to include staying with the mother. If she wants to continue contact with the baby then father should be paid child support. If the father does not want any responsibility he should have no say what so ever. The exceptions here would be for forced impregnation or health(fatal) of the mother. Society wants men to step up and be a parent but then says oh you have no say in whether your child is born or not, that is just wrong. I take on my responsibilities and I would be crushed to find out a child that I helped to produce had been "terminated". If the mother doesn't want the child why not give the father a chance to step up?

I don't think the father should ever have a say when trying to abort when the mother wants to have the baby. This applies both ways.

 

All I was doing was trying to share a story of how some kids got their dead beat dad to pay. I thought it was great, when I stopped working their he still had over $20,000 to pay. That included intrest. The kids did not live in destiture poverty and I think that is very insulting to their mother for you to assume that. I got to meet them a couple of times and all they could talk about is how much their mother worked to give them a great life. You don't have to be so rude. The kids where acutally using some of the money to by their mother a new car because they apriciated her so much.

 

I'm in no way condoning lying about birth control, but birth control is not just the woman's decision. Both partners need to take responsibility - using condoms can help prevent pregnancy even if the woman is lying about birth control.


anyway, back on topic - aside from rape and aside from cases where the father is uncontactable or cases where he might have a violent reaction to the news, I think the father of the child should always be informed and be allowed input on the final choice. However, in the end the ultimate decision rests with the woman - she is the one with the baby growing inside her and living off her and no-one should be forced into that decision. Equally, if she is emotionally unable to go through with an abortion no-one should be able to force her to terminate this thing that is almost a part of her body, even the guy who doesn't want it. (and, while it is the nice/right thing to emotionally/financially support the kid, he has the ability to run away)


I think in the end it comes down to this - men have the freedom of leaving the pregnancy but if comes at the expense of having the final say. Women get this final say but it is at the expense of their freedom.

 

My mom sued my dad for child support. Even though he is a multi-millionaire now they went off of what the court ordered him to pay when he was in the military and owned no property or buisnesses, which was something like 600 a month.


My mom sued him and they settled for a lump sum of 120k (no interest). That kinda money means nothing to him, he prob paid more for his lawyer to fight my mom. He had no problem giving me money but when it came to my mom he called her every name in the book after we spent six years of my childhood living in low-income housing while she finished school. Oh by the way...his kids live on a ranch and my step sister has my horse on the property he bought her. Lovely eh? Just because I didn't want him in my life or his money doesn't mean I don't want my fucking horse, or my fucking baby book, or my grandmother's property intrusted to me but in his name...so I have to fucking talk to him if I want that when she dies.
Ya know I am sure lucky I have a great mom, a great grandfather who took the place of my dad and a great grandma but sometimes I can't help but be bitter, not over money but over him treating his sons like children and his daughters like well...I don't wanna get into that.

 

Of course men should have a say!! If the pregnancy goes forward, the baby will be their responsibility as much as the mother's, that gives them equal say in whteher an abortion goes through or not.

Of course that raises the very prickly question of WHAT HAPPENS IF HE WANTS HER TO HAVE AN ABORTION AND SHE SAYS NO - SHOULD HE STILL BE LIABLE FOR MAINTENANCE??????

 

Absolutely. We do not get ourselves pregnant. If a man is so against paying for a child, he should keep his sperm to himself.

Reproduction is totally sexist...and that is just the way it is.

 

Are you suggesting that we give a man full ownership of a woman's body ONLY because he happened to impregnate her? Or only when his oppinion on how she uses her own body is diffrent from his? Are you suggesting that the person whose body is NOT going to endure any physical risks from pregnancy has MORE say then the person whose body is enduring these risks? Is this what you are saying? Two(3 actually) people can't have equal rights over 1 body. Both the man & the fetus "rights" end where the mother's begin. You can't have it ANY other way with out reducing women to slaves & violating their basic human freedoms to full ownership of thier own personhood. Her choice is more important. It might be biased...but reproduction is biased. Women must assume all of the risk and the majority of the physical & financial responsibility. Because women carry the ALL the risk and most or all of the responsibility it is only fair and natural that the women's voice be more important as it is she who will not only be raising the child(in most cases with unwed couples custody is always given to the mother) but whose body must be used as an incubator for 10 months.

 

I am all for giving a father the chance to "step up". Taking responsibility doesn't give him veto power over the choice of the mother. He can step up after the child is born...when he has rights and responsibilities to that child.

 

none. her body her choice. at termination sessions, if a couple shows up he stays only as long as I feel he is not impeding the lady's ability to make a decision. if I feel he is in the way then he's asked to step out whilst I speak to the lady alone. should either not be happy with my decision to ask the male partner to leave then I offer her a choice of seeing a colleague when one becomes available or rescheduling to see someone else another day.

 

If the child belongs to the women then why is the man responsible at all? I think women want to have it both ways but that doesn't make it right. IMO if either parent wants to raise the child it should be given to them if the other doesn't want it. There are many options before pregnancy for either party to make the choice upfront about protection. Once prenancy occurs I think you both created it. The father shouldn't have to let the child die just because the mother doesn't want it. That is just crazy and prevents a wanted child from coming into the world. This is just my opinion but the use of the womans body for 9 months should not give her sole say on whether a father, that loves and wants the baby, has to deal with it being "terminated". To avoid arguments here, I will say no more. A baby is part of the mother and father and should be treated as such during prenancy as well as after birth. Fathers or potential fathers have to start standing up for their rights and that of their offspring. The woman has the ultimate choice over her body when she decides to have sex just like the man.

 

Hey, no one said child rearing or childbirth is "fair" The risks a womyn goes through to give birth far outweigh the "risks" a man who doesn't want to be a father go through to pay child support.

Fine. We'll implant the embryo in his abdomen and he can risk his life, health and freedom. How does that sound? Have fun with the life risking major surgery to get the kid out.

Sorry, skittle chick. I guess, due to your previous posts, I jumped to the conculsion that you were not in favor of this agreement, as you didn't give an opinion of the situation. I wasn't being "rude" I was stating MY opinion. Different thing.

 

If the embryo could be removed from the woman and implanted in the man, then he has a say.


Chris Rock said it best. "When a woman tells you she is pregnant, the only thing you can say is 'what do you want to do'?" and leave it at that.

It's so easy for a man to be pro-life. They don't have to deal with the physical ramifications of being pregnant. (And yes, women still die during childbirth.)

 

EXACTLY. My dh did that with EVERY pregnancy I have had. All six of them. I miscarried twice and had four children. BUT, before he let me know what he wanted, he needed MY desires, as he understood I would not only be the one to go through the pregnancies and childbirths (and after the first baby, we know that both of these are an ordeal and even perhaps lifethreatening for me) and do the majority of the day to day child care.

In every instance I said "I want the baby." BUT, my man understood that every time, it was my choice. All he said was "I'll support you in whatever you want to do."

 

I don't think a man should have to pay for a child he didn't want. Don't flame me here. Listen for just a second.

There are women out there that have sex with highly-paid successful men JUST to get pregnant. so they can have the baby and get support. And that is wrong.

It's also wrong for a child to grow up with this unfulfilled image of a father that gives money but nothing else. I grew up like that, and I hated it. I wish I hadn't had a father to begin with.

I honestly wish it could go on a case by case basis. If a woman is pregnant, the woman makes the choice to carry, and then the man should have a say as to whether or not he'll be around. If he doesn't want to be around and to pay, he signs over all of his rights pre-birth. He is NEVER to contact the child. If the child wants to find him after they reach adulthood, that's fine.

 

I think by nature of being the potential father, the guy automatically gets a voice in the issue. All the "But it's my body!" Wah-wahs aside.

 

Names? Dates? Photgraphs? Are the kids OK?

Who are these women who take most of the child support for gin and bon-bons while leaving the child hungry? Don't those bitches realize they are giving all women a bad name.

I want names and photographs so these evil women can be held up to public scorn.

 

What I think: If a woman is considering an abortion, the man has every right to state his opinion. If he is encouraging the abortion and she doesn't want one, then the problems begin. Yes, he's still entitled to his opinion, but it is her body. And until men can birth a child, they have no say in the choice of a woman.