The Bible is true?

That's neither here nor there, that is my whole point! Whether or not Mr Wyatt really found these things, or if they're 'for real', by man's judgment, has no bearing whatsoever on the question of whether the bible's for real.

That's what's getting in the way with everyone! Trying to get man to show proof of G-d. That's basically idolatry, if you look at truthfully. Who do you believe? Not Ron Wyatt, not Annie, not archeologists, but G-d, Jesus! The source of Truth with a capital T.

All this time wasted trying to verify could be spent by verifying the bible with itself. All you're doing is proclaiming to G-d that you have not much faith.

Does it make you mad that I say that? I could care less whether this stuff is true (although Mr. Wyatt's 'discoveries' are an interesting read, regardless) because it's not always going to be here.

Heaven and earth will both pass away, but my words will never pass away--Jesus

 

I think what Wyatt's work shows us is just how gullible we as human beings can be. Therefore anyone who does not take the time to search for truth is in danger of having 'faith' in whatever is handed them... right or wrong.


Seek and you will find...
knock and the door will be opened....

The bible teaches us about faith, but is says nothing about BLIND faith.

 

freakwentflyer and pop13:

I did look at the links you both posted. I mentioned Ron Wyatt because that's the only biblical archeology of any sort I've read about, and I happened upon him in looking for some reference to the Noah's ark story and photo I had seen on TV as a child. It turned out to be the same as the one he discovered. Also, from the previous posts, it seemed that's where the information was coming from.

Like I said, I don't look for verification with archeology and other things, any more, as I found them to be a stumbling block. When I focused on the bible, and said 'I trust G-d to give me the truth within this book' it gave me the ability to trust without needing proof given by man. That's not to say I don't look up associated research about the bible, but in no way do I base my belief on the findings. I'm just not much into archeology for the simple fact of the time factor which it relies on, and I truly believe the bible is not going to match our designated timelines. There are many reasons I believe this, but none of them make what it says not truth.

I didn't realize that Mr. Wyatt had the beliefs and alledged agenda these articles state he did. I didn't get into that much, because his beliefs have nothing to do with mine, the same for everyone. There were a few things in a couple of the accounts that didn't go along with my understandings, interpretations of Revelation, for one thing, in the ark of the covenant story. The pictures of the garden tomb struck a cord with me, as did the Mt Sinai stuff. But none of it affected my belief in the bible.

Although these articles have valid points, they have a comparable amount of invalid points, as well, based on the human vs. divine proof thing. One example is I read somewhere in these articles that the baal's altar stones couldn't have been the ones from the Exodus, because they were too big, and the bible says Aaron built the altar. The problems I see with that justification are #1 that could have easily meant Aaron supervised the building of the altar, even today the foreman is often credited with the whole job, just for the sake of simplicity or whatever. #2 If that's not the reason for why it is said that way, another reason could be that there is a symbolism inherent in the passage that depends on saying Aaron was the builder, not the supervisor. I don't know, because I haven't read that passage with that aspect in mind. #3 No one has yet been able to agree on the actual date of the Exodus, mainly because each 'biblical scholar' or 'archeologist' is using just one reference alongside the bible to come to all these separate conclusions.

If we're going to compare other findings alongside the bible, just for giggles, let's say, then why not compare several findings from various fields simultaneously? I guarantee a lot more clarity would result from a wider perspective. It's easier to pick out the truth when there's comparison made! That's only logical, and it seems 'scientific' for those that dig that avenue.

Still, the bottom line is this: G-d didn't give us His word for biblical proof 101 at the university of human error. He gave it to us so that we can graduate/drop out of that fallible school, and become true scholars, justified by faith.

But until we throw away all textbooks but the bible, when placing our faith in what we read in the bible, we won't be able to see what it really says. No one wants to accept apocryphal biblical texts, that haven't been mutilitated by politics, despite their ability to be proven within themselves and alongside the canonized bible, yet we will argue over the validity of human discoveries! The only two main discoveries viable in this discussion were both found hidden in clay jars/pots, in the desert, in the 1940's. Everything we need to know to feel we truly are justified in faith can be found there.

Can you really say you believe in G-d if you won't take Him at his word? Or His Word?

 

I can't disagree with anything you have said. I am certainly not trying to erode anyone's faith by discounting Wyatt's stuff. I appreciate any thoughtful christian perspective and I fear for people who will swallow hook-line and sinker anything that seems to proove their point.


I for one do beleive ina God and think he has spoken to us throughout the ages through various mediums and continues to speak to us to this day. I think a conscious effort must be undertaken to understand the context of our teachers and search for truth in the necessarily human interpretation and recording of these messages. Arguing over stories is entirely irrelevant, and this generally is my major complaint. Many people will fight to the end over stories presented to us without any research into who wrote them, what the political/social/and religious framework was in place.. and in the end does it REALLY matter? If God is God then it doesn't matter if his process is evolution, or just shitting out animals? If God is God then who cares in Noah could cram half a billion species into a boat? If God is God then the only thing that matters is building a persoanl relationship and understanding of the forces that bring you closer to it.

 

Ditto. That's the problem, trying to prove their point. Whose point is it, really, if you believe in G-d? I'd say G-d's!

That's also the problem, trying to understand the hows and whys instead of just believing. He loves us unconditionally, IMO, and so conditional faith is not up to par in return. I learned so much more after I quit trying to conform the bible to my understanding and instead tried to understand the bible. I do believe there's only one force which can truly bring you closer to knowing G-d, one on one, and that's trusting that it's possible to do so with just the two of you involved, on the basic level. There's nothing wrong with comparing notes, and learning from each other's understandings, but the foundation must be original to ourselves.

Trying to prove to each other why what we believe is the absolute thing to believe is really not about faith, it's about human insecurity and fear, mainly fear of dying. Both of which can be easily remedied by one initial 'leap of faith'. But no one wants to strive for something they'd rather already think they have. If it doesn't set you free, it's not truth.

 

Lets not be vague on this issue, it's not just stories we are arguing about here. It is the credibility of the bible. The truth is the facts supporting scripture are coming out. Most of the world does not want to hear these facts nor do they want a personal God. They want a God that looks the other way when they live a lifestyle the bible condems. Thats why some speak of God as an it. As if He was some force floating in space. God is not an it, He was fully human and He is fully God. The world showed God how much they love truth when they nailed Him to a cross. Recently two other men found their way to mount Sinai and came back with pictures and video recordings. They are telling the same story that Ron wyatt and his son told.
National Geographic Television stated after viewing their pictures and videos, "This is a masterpiece of research and significance..a great piece of work and one of the most remarkable things that has happened of recent years." -Jack Hayford. Ian Reed, of Reuters News Agency "What could possibly upstage the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls? Maybe the news that Mount Sinai has been found...." "Your explorations are fascinating. Your story is remarkable!"
The only hook line and sinker being swallowed here, is by those who turn away from the obvious truth. Even when the evidence is set before them, they will not consider it, or acknoledge it.

 

The only truth needed to support the scripture is found within it. i.e. John 14:6 *Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not Ron Wyatt, not Moses, not Pharoah, not the Church fathers, and not the pope. Not by means of any proof. The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

I agree with that. They want a god they can look away from, more precisely. Therefore, don't you realize that until you tailor a god to allow them their comforts and attachments to the world, that there will always be a reason some people will give for not believing? If they don't believe, after they've had the opportunity to hear, what else can a person do? Why spend the rest of your time here tap dancing around a bunch of non-resolvable points of contention that will never be resolved anyway? If you somehow 'prove' the bible really happened, verbatim, are those with hardened hearts suddenly going to see the light? Just because you showed factual evidence? Is that going to make what it says any more true than it is, 'non proven'? Why try to convert the world to your line of thinking in a futile exercise which is just as much a distraction from your own spiritual affairs as greed and all worldly things can be? Who are you helping? Who are you hurting?

Exactly. What makes you think they are going to love truth now, put forth in a less potent manner than He did? He didn't go around trying to 'prove' who He was or present any authority for his words other than He who sent Him. Period. He tried to keep Himself a secret as well, since He knew how fond this world is of truth. Example:Matthew 7:6 *Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. If someone earnestly desires to know Him, they will find the door to knock upon. Example: Matthew 15:26 *But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. Matthew 15:27 *And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

So who's telling Jesus's story, the sake of which all these efforts at proof are supposedly for? To someone who already believes, they are just unnecessary, and to those who don't believe, they mean nothing. They never will, until there is first trust and faith used as salve for blind eyes.

Sure it is, however, I say almost the same thing to myself each time I find a new enlightenment when reading the bible. Which is every single time I read it, and that is every day. I don't need National Geographic to back my claim, either.

There was more than one discovery of valuble biblical texts found in like manner in the same area, 2 years prior, yet no one wants to read them or count them valid. The are just like the canonized bible, and the DSS, they are verifiable within themselves and alongside the other two. What richer discovery could there be than more of the words of Jesus?!? Why wouldn't they be the words of Jesus, and more truth? Because they weren't canonized by the early church? Who did that? Jesus? G-d? Or humans desiring to control their vast empire with the fear induced by forced ignorance of the truth. If they'd had their way, there'd be no reason to try to prove the bible, as they would be the only ones owning one. Fortunately, it's not that way, and we have no reason not to research it for our self.

What do you refer to as 'the obvious truth' in that sentence? I don't need evidence to recognize truth, and you shouldn't either. Maybe you're trying to find proof to bolster your own faith? Otherwise you'd stand firm upon the justification of that faith. But you'd rather place your justification in another person, or discoveries of physical evidence. That will never yield results.

What if your salvation was dependent upon G-d getting 5 references of your worthiness, from people that were both known by you and G-d, all of whom had already received the seal of approval in the same manner? How much would you believe, then? How likely do you think it would be to achieve salvation in that manner? G-d is supreme and divine, you say so yourself. Why do you require more stringent qualifications of his word than he does of your worthiness to receive such word?

More examples:Matthew 10:14 *And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Mark 9:37 *Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Luke 18:17 *Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Little children don't ask for proof of the tooth fairy, grinches who steal christmas, or of the cow jumping over the moon. They just believe you because they love you and trust your love for them.

 

As a Christian, I care about a persons soul. If all I had was religion I would take the same jaded approach. I would casually walk down the street, and seeing a non christians house on fire I would say to myself, he had time to read his bible to bad for him let him burn. Yet, those who love the lord love these people. I can tell by the way some people speak, that they have religion but they don't have Jesus. Because when you have the Lord in your heart you go the extra mile to convince others that the bible is more than a story book. It really is the word of God. I remember years ago how I had told a friend of mine about Jesus and for years he rejected everything I said. Then one day God gave me something that would prove to him that the bible was true. The evidence so convinced him, that he gave his life to Christ, then his brother became a Christian, and right after that his sister became one to. Sometimes all it takes is a little evidence to change a heart. If I had taken the position that you don't believe well you can go to hell, they probably would of. The God of the bible has left proofs of it's validity which is turning hearts to Christ. Unfortunatly to many Christians ingnore these proofs and are allowing the world to slip deeper into darkness.

I don't need evidence to recognize truth?

Well good for you, but some people are convinced that the bible is true when presented with such evidence. So realizing there are people like this you would say forget them, and the evidence, let them burn, don't waste your time on them.
Well sorry, that's not my kind of Christianity. I will use what ever God gives me to win these precrious people to Christ.

Physical evidence that will never yield results?

Your wrong again, anytime you see evidence that is true it strengths your faith all the more. It's like the East gate in Jerusalem. It stands sealed just as the bible proclaimed it would. Just one more piece of evidence that builds and strengthen's the faith of the believer. Because it stands as a testament to God's truth. Only someone working against God would try to hide these facts.

 

queenannie,

I understand what you are saying. I agree with you on that if a person calling himself a Christian needs to see these things with his own eyes to believe, then somethingwas missing from the beginging. Perhaps that is what some of these peopel are doing. However, I must agree with campbell in that we as Christians use all the tools God has given us to attempt to shed light on non believers. In our attempts to spread The Word we often find ourselves turned away because they do not want to believe what is written. With some non believers all that is needed is The Bible and someone to talk with them about it. To others, more is needed. So in that case, if you have something mentioned in The Book you love and cherrish come forth and able to be seen, then there are those non believers that will see it as truth and their lives will be changed forever.

Let me put this scenerio in front of you.

You are walking alone the road one day to the store. You come across a few people that notice you are carrying a Bible. They approach you and begin to ask you questions about how this and that are possible. Not to far away from you there stands a man listening in on the conversation. He to has these questions and is very curious but not in the ridaculing manners as the others. The few begin to question you on Noahs Ark and the possability of it all. They ask you about the dinosaurs and what happened to them. Because you do not have the worldly proof you need to exaplin to them, you are at a loss of words. They laugh at you and call you out as a fraud. You are not really bothered by this as your faith is stong in God. You decided to "turn the other cheeck" and go on about your shoping. However, at that same time, the man watching and listening has made up his mind that what he is seeking is not found here. He walks away with questions unanswered and eternity in Heaven lost.

Had you done the research outside of The Bible and yet use The Bible, you could have talked about the human remains found at the same level where dinosaurs are found. You could have mentioned that these dinosaurs were wiped out not by a huge meteor, but by a flood. So many things you could have proven to be right. In the end, they would make their decisions, and with hardened heart could have been like Pharoe and still denied God. However, just as Moses was instructed to try, so should you.

 

Are you saying my approach is jaded? Judge me not, just because you think you know where I am coming from and that what I say must mean what you would mean if you had said the things I did. I don't have any religion, religion is just politics and deception, designed to control the masses. I am the most unjaded that I've ever been in my life, but that's another topic.

More judgment. You don't know what's in my heart, and think because I don't think like you and speak like you that I don't have Jesus. You are a direct product of the world's religion, my friend, but you're too set in your own ideas to be receptive. You're not understanding what I'm saying. Does everything useful in instruction have to be 100% verified facts? In no way did I ever say the bible wasn't the word of G-d, I understand that more than you realize. Taking it as a storybook may be the best advice one could give another when they truly care. Maybe I should rephrase, and say a parable. The bible is a parable of parables, even the OT. That's the key to it. If I didn't care, do you think I'd be writing any of this? It's not like I have anything to prove, about myself or the bible, especially on this forum. Your view is narrow and your mind is set, so that makes you think I'm jaded and I don't have Jesus. I used to think just like you, with one difference: I wasn't bullheaded. When someone once told me the bible was allegory, instead of reacting, I responded and just filed it away, not believing but not rejecting. A short time later, I was reading some parable, and suddenly I saw something I hadn't before. I can't be specific, I can't remember. It was merely a slight slant to my understanding, which changed my comprehension, and a domino effect followed. When I compare myself with before that to after, I know I am not misguided. Your heart will tell you what's true, and it won't ask for proof. Same for everyone.

How about an open mind?

Do you actually think it would be determined by your actions? Your actions are yours, your responsibilities are contained in your own sphere. I understand that I can't convert every non-believer into a believer. Idealists don't make good believers, you believe in everything just because you believe in something. Our jobs are to illuminate the path, and be an example to others through our lives, not be champions of the lost souls. That's another product of religion. It's also arrogant and not in your best interests. You're ignoring your own development.

Actually, too many 'christians' ignore the upkeep of their faith. Most just pick a church or a doctrine, or adopt an understanding of what they perceive Jesus is all about, and then they're set, in stone. Somehow that constitutes 'faith' for most. That's bullheadedness, or in a biblical word, a hardened heart. The proof you seek to show others is actually for yourself, but you don't see that, either.

Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Did Jesus say we should heal them? No, we've got a big enough job to do already, just concerning ourselves.

Let's say this proof is really for the purpose you say. You convinced someone to believe in Jesus because you proved the bible was 'real' (what exactly do you mean by that anyway?), and you've done your christian duty. What happens when something happens in that person's life that overwhelms the actions of your 'proving', or that proof is somehow rendered no longer proof, due to mistaken research or some such potential human error? What's going to keep them firm? Not faith, because that was not the foundation in the first place. You're building castles on the sand of humanity instead of the rock of G-d! It's not your job to prove the bible, it's your job to testify as to your own faith. But you don't even understand what I mean.

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So that makes it possible for them to have faith, because it's been shown to be true, since the bible speaks of it and you've proven the bible? That's not faith.

to be continued...

 

Continued…

Where do you get these misunderstandings of what I say? No, what I'm saying is that if they don't thirst for it after it's introduced, you can't make them thirsty!!!!

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

I wonder if you even read the bible seriously, because even literally, I would understand certain things Jesus said. You seem to just disregard the very words attributed to the living Word, for even if the bible is the word of G-d, Jesus is the Word.

Mark 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

God didn't give you anything to 'win these precious people to Christ'--that's not your job! Are such a sage and learned christian that you have been assigned this duty for mankind? That's the same attitude Paul infected the church with, and it's called 'religion'. Jesus is the only source of true freedom, and it's not about control and conversion. It's a personal matter, not a mission for super christian.

Not in spiritual matters, not on a permanent basis. Again, read the words of Jesus.

Who's trying to hide these 'facts'? Facts are of the world. Truth is of the spirit. The evidence is within me, not found in the things I see with my eyes. I have eyes that see, not eyes that are blind. Nothing of the world is proof of G-d, except how it feels when you feel absolutely sure of what you say, without need to reference anything except the authority of G-d. Again, I say, read the bible that you're trying so hard to prove.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
14 Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
...
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.


Sure all the stuff in the OT happened, that's not proof of Jesus, at all. This kind of proof is actually misleading and dangerous for both you and your targets for conversion. Are you converting them to Judaism? Or Christianity? Do you realize the differences in leadership between the two? YHVH is not the Father Jesus speaks about, and maybe there's another source for all these things that deceive you into thinking you know what 'proof' is and what to do with it. Read the gospels carefully and you'll realize that not once does Jesus say his Father is the same god of the Pharisees and Sadducees, descended from Abraham.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord , Sit thou on my right hand,...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ .

Now I'm assuming that you understand the subtle meaning in verse 34, The LORD said unto my Lord. LORD in all caps means the text originally said YHVH, this is a universal fact of all translations. We've got YHVH, Jesus, and G-d, all represented there. YHVH is not G-d! How many times does Jesus refer to the Father as LORD? Not once! In fact the only times in the four gospels, and Acts, that LORD is mentioned is Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42, and Acts 2:34. All in the telling of this same story of David.
How can you prove anything or speak on the authority of G-d, when you don't even realize that the OT LORD and G-d, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, are not one in the same?!?!? Research it yourself, if you don't believe me. I wish you would. I'm trying to ruffle your feathers and upset you for a reason, not to prove that I'm right or that you're not, or that only I know what is truth and what isn't. I do not believe I am any more qualified to know truth than you are. I do believe in the truth, and I know that what has been revealed to me is available to all who seek truth through Jesus. That's why I say there's more to it than you realize, because there is. I wish you'd get riled up enough to check it out for yourself, even if to 'prove' me wrong. Whatever it takes to stir things up, because they're stagnant. And I know that you don't want that, I know that you truly love the Lord, just as I do. Not all love of G-d looks just like yours, or mine.

Read Luke 8:4-21.
Does that make any sense to you, in regard to what I am saying?

 

Bandit, thank you for your views, I appreciate that you see what I mean. As well, I see what you are saying, but I can show you more about the example that you gave that might clarify what I'm trying to get across.

I couldn't agree with you more, and I do have that opportunity quite often, although not specifically with these questions. No one's ever presented me with the flood vs dinosaur thing (except my own self).

Here's my version of this scenario:

This is where it changes.

I wouldn't have the worldly proof with me, per se, but I do have facts in my head which I would gladly share, and I would say this:

“The extinction of the dinosaurs happened several billion years ago, this is verified by any short search into the history of mass extinctions, as also is the fact of the presence of hominids such as cro-magnon man, Neanderthal man, with the last known pre human hominid being a couple of million years ago. The fifth, and last mass extinction occurred about that time, as well as a significant climate change. So the earth was in essence starting over. Although in the canonized bible I carry, it says ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was formless and empty…’ this is actually a result of a mistranslation from the Hebrew when the KJV was translated. There were only 3 Hebrew translators involved in that project, with two dying before it was finished, and none of the three were actually a Hebrew scholar. Now, I’m not a Hebrew Scholar, either, but I am learning Hebrew, and what I have learned, from scholars who understand the differences between the ancient Hebrew, the King’s English employed in the KJV, and our modern English language, is that much has been lost in translation, although there are some that would disagree. They are not interested in these subtle differences that are very important. There are bibles which can make it easier for a new believer to find the original meaning as recorded by the Hebrew Scribes. Anyway, what I’m getting at, is the original first lines of Genesis actually read ‘In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth became waste, darkness was over the surface of the abyss, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters.’ Now that’s congruent with the findings regarding past species on earth, including dinosaurs and hominids.
There are those that wish to say that the bible’s story of creation is the absolute creation of the earth, and therefore the earth is only around 6000 years old, because that’s the figure they arrive at from biblical accounts. The first known civilization, according to anthropology studies, was ancient Sumeria, in Mesopotamia (where Iraq is today). These people invented the wheel and also the cuneiform alphabet. This is also where Ur of the Chaldees was, where ‘father’ Abraham, that father of the jewish people, was originally from. This area is between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, and most biblical scholars claim that is where the Garden of Eden was. The history of the Sumerians has been traced back to about 6000 years ago. Scientists have found data supporting more than one flood, as many were caused by catastrophic earthly events. There is an opinion by some that the flood of Noah flooded just the Mediterranean basin, and this has been shown to have occurred. The world of man was still known to itself in that small area, and to the people then, that was the ‘world’. All civilizations dating from that time have a very similar flood story, as well as a creation story. Creation is not about the beginning of this planet. It’s been here far longer than we have. Creation refers to the origins of the race of humanity that now inhabits the Earth. So it seems that the regular scientists and the biblical scholars really don’t have any differences in opinion, just maybe different beliefs and a stubbornness which won’t allow them to see they are actually in agreement with one another.
As for me, I don’t take one over the other, as I see strengths and weaknesses in the theories of both, more possible when one isn’t taking sides. I don’t hold with the opinions and ideas of biblical scholars, just because they’re biblical and I believe in the bible. They are always seeking to prove things of G-d, found in the bible, in the worldly plane.
The bible isn’t about science, or scholars, or even interpretation, commentaries, preaching hell fire, and conversion of ‘sinners’. It’s about faith. It’s an extensive lesson book that can teach us about the confusing ways of the world, such as why it seems so evil, and it can also teach us about all the things we wonder about secretly within ourselves. The main lesson it is meant to teach us is that if we believe and trust in the things Jesus has said to us in regard to knowing He is the son of the one true G-d, and trusting that we contain a part of the eternal spirit of G-d within us, he tells us that we will be rewarded.
All it takes to have this reward is to believe we can have it, based on the trust we have in Jesus’s words of Truth. That is the only real source of truth anyone can find, because as you will find in learning what he’s said to you, you’ll see that the world is about greed and deception, because it is the realm of the devil, since the beginning of our current civilization, 6000 years ago. It’s also a place subject to death. Which brings me back to telling you of the reward we are promised. I’m sure you’ve heard people talk about eternal life in heaven. That’s one way of putting it, because as we all say, memories are all you have. But what happens when you die on this earth? If you believe there is nothing beyond, that is what you’ll get. That is actually the reality that is called ‘hell’ by those that don’t understand. Hell is not a fiery place of eternal torture, it’s more about darkness and nothingness. It is losing all your memories and sense of self. You get thrown back into the pool of humanity ‘raw materials’ and will return to earth, or another human realm, again, but you will not remember any of what you were before. You have to start over at the beginning, complete with human suffering like you've already experienced in this life, and you won’t even really be ‘you’ anymore, since all the soul material merges together in that ‘vat of creation’ from which souls are derived. Hell is darkness and unconsciousness, and loss of self and memories. In a sense you cease to exist, in the memory of time. Just know you’re not going to be in the fiery pits of Hell, ever. Even if you reject the truth of G-d, he still loves you, and would not subject you to such a cruel and merciless eternity. If you accept Him as the companion which he had in mind when each of us were created, you return to dwell in His realm, that most call Heaven. It is a place of light, love, and beauty. You are a slave to nothing such as we are in this world, and also you join that within you that’s not made of flesh (your soul) to G-d’s spirit as one. However, you will always retain your individuality, because you will keep all your precious memories of not only this life, but all lives you’ve lived the last 6000 years. You will still be you, but you will enjoy the total intoxication of that which is G-d, with never a tear or sad heart again, nothing negative will come upon you again, forever.”

How do you think this would affect both the people I'm speaking to, and the man overhearing?

 

I am not arguing the credibility of the bible I am arguing against a few intolerant, judgemental, know-it-alls who claim there interpetation of the bible is the one and only acceptable answer.
You think God has a dick? Well then how is 'it' any worse a pronoun than 'he'? Your homocentric view of God is not shared by all...

That was Jesus I thought.. a part of the trinity liek God the father.

I have refuted this video on another thread an need not repeat it here.

YOUR truth is yours. Many share your OPINION. Many share mine.
Your condemnation smacks of the pharisees... Oh righteous Campbell teach me your truth because if I don't agree with you I must be lost! There are many ways of reading scripture and some look beyond the limelight of bible-thumping websites and documentaries to discover the true nature of god.

 

No I don't know what is in your heart. All I know is what you verbalize on this post. And it appears to me you do not like to hear about the proofs of the bible. It also appears you are in opposition to some basic scriptural teachings.

Jesus preaches the great commision, telling us to preach the gospel to the world.
You say that's not my job.

You say that are heart will tell us the truth. The bible teaches us that the heart of man is desperatly wicked.

You say even if the bible is the word of God?

I don't need to know what is in your heart. My conclusions are based on the words you speak. Now I understand why you do not want to hear about the proofs of the bible. It's because you don't believe the stories in the bible. Any verifiable proof that would suggest that the stories are true would interfere with your generic belief system. The bible is either Gods perfect truth or it is a detestable lie. The Old Testament does not read as a parable, but as a history of the Jewish people. Parables do not even come in to play until you come to the New Testament, and then they are stated as such. My view may be narrow, but I have had wonderful success seeing many people come to the saving knoledge of Christ, proclaiming Him as their Lord and Saviour. That's the reason God has put us here. You say someone once told you the bible was allegory, well that person was wrong, and that is the same lie the devil tells everyone, only you believed it. Don't you see why you are repelled by the truths of the Bible. Because the discoveries today refutes the liar of liars. And he is this same liar that wants a fenced around mount sinia, and tried to get the moslems to break through the east gate in Jerusalem. He is trying to destroy the bible but God will not allow it. He tried to get Hitler to kill off the Jewish race which would also destroy the bible, but again God did not allow it. The Bible teaches us to resist the devil and he will flee from you.

 

i jsut popped in wihtout reading teh rest of this thread, but hitlers killing of the jews wouldnt get rid the the bible. Maybe the torah. But they wouldnt get rid of their pert of the torah (old testamnet). Hitler was working for god. The nazis praised god. Or wait, sorry were they actually jsut pretending, and really going home to praise satan?

everyhting bad is run by satan, everyhing good by god? doesnt that make us humans powerless, and meaningless pawns of god or satan's will?

And i expect another long post in reply, sonny!

 

Yes, we are but pawns in God's ultimate plan. Why, does that make you feel small and useless?

Where on earth would you get the idea that Hitler was doing The Lords bidding? Come on man, seriously, pick up a book and read a little before you open your mouth and make a fool of yourself.

 

ill admit i was a little wrong there, i hadnt really looked into the situation i was only working off the only information i had been given in the past.

It seems hitler was actually an absolute hater of christianity.
However, he still beleived in christianity and the nazi party was still a christian movement. He jsut personally chose not to rpactice it in his personal time and actions. but that doesnt remove the fact that the nazi's were a christian movement and were dont 'in the name of our lord'.

I always have found hitler to be a very great and smart man, his obvious faults however, lying in his absolute immorality and bad ethics which are not good qualities. Of course now his angle is even more clearer to me, after a bit of reseach ive jsut done. hitler really was a great man.. his striving for perfection and lack of self control were perhaps the only things keeping him form being a very great leader...

anyway so whther he did oppose the practice of christianity, which could be seen as working for satan, whether satan actually controlled him or if the idea that an enemy's enemy is a friend applies, is anotehr issue.

oh and umm did you jsut agree that humans have no meaning but to fulfil god's motives?

 

The Personal Equation of the Collective Conscience can be Comprehended best through the famous parable "The Tower of Babel" in Babylon of the Bible. If one translates the Holy Bible back into the original Greek and Hebrew, one is able to realize, when real literally, the Bible is just that of its title. "Holy" taken from the Greek word Hosios (phonetic spelling of the Greek pronunciation) is defined in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible as ". . .right (by intrinsic or divine character); hallowed"; coupled with the English definition of the New World Dictionary of the American Language, Second Edition: "regarded with or deserving deep respect; awe; reverence; or adoration". The word "bible" is derived from the Ecclesiastic Late Greek word Biblion which means "book". Our revised title of the Holy Bible read literally would be: a book regarded with deep respect, awe, reverence and adoration; hallowed. King James' version of possible fictional or factual historical events is much revered and adored; true, but still nothing more than a book. I could title this volume of essays Bible (however, its holiness could be disputed, if I chose, no difference would be apparent between mine and King James' save our perspectives, and maybe the copyright.

However, my point is not to argue reverence, but to demonstrate the Bible as being what it is: a book full of symbolism, grandiose imagery, parables, rumors and the like, and can be learnt from and knowledge profited as if one were reading any other work of Philosophy or Fiction. Having said this, I contend the theme behind the parable of Babel is not only one about a confusion of languages, but more of a confusion of consciences, or ways of thinking. Do not ways of thinking culture language as a means to communicate those ways of thinking to other like-thinking beings? In my point of view, the world [note: for the purpose of this writing, "World" refers to its original Latin meaning "Age of Man"; additionally, Age of Man includes individual personalities imbibed with consciences measured by personal experience within the environment of World] appears chaotic to the Conscience because the Conscience does not possess the ability to understand or comprehend a conscience external from itself. Individuality divided then re-integrated into a social whole at the voluntary loss of that individuality creates the Collective Conscience. The Collective Conscience is then sundered from the natural duality of the self-sufficient, -motivating, -willing, -propelling Self. The separate but unified Conscience sees the world through its lens. But this is not the extent of the Chaos the Conscience perceives. When the Conscience can not conform the world to its way of thinking Disorder of the Personality is born. The world does not "make sense" to the disordered personality as it futilely attempts to arrange the world to its Personal Equation. But this is not the only source of the perceived Chaos. When the conscience, or way of thinking, forces the world to comport to its realm of thinking and forces other consciences to see as it sees, in one and only one way, "My Way", Chaos is complete. Chaos manifests itself as Conflict caused by Resistance to that force. Collective Thinking attempts to compress Self-Thinking into its singularity then the enforcement of Collective Order is able to be owned, managed, and controlled easily, with little or no resistance. In effect, 'One God. One Country. One Nation. One People. One World.' becomes the motto of the Collective Conscience. In other words, One Conscience, One Way of Thinking. If this is what is seen as the symbolism behind Babel, that would make the world a symbol of Babylon.

The relationship of Chaos v Order accords the Collective Conscience; yes, but also breeds Xenophobia. The denial and refusal to accept any opposing view to the Collective, and the thirst for annihilation of any opposing view should it resists the Collective, is the means to bring order out of the Chaos, to rebuild the Tower of Babel, and reintegrate Conscience to a singularity by way of Force and Violence. But this is a perverted aspect of Global Thinking, for true Global Thinking encompasses the individual conscience before the Whole of Individual Conscience; if so, external conflict would be unnecessary when all are thinking globally, rather than globally thinking. One is oppressive, the other depressive (but liberating). Babylon is man-made and invented, therefore outside of Nature, even Supernatural, and the existence of any sense of Self becomes obliterated in the vacuum of the Global Self. This desire to delete the Self-Conscience is the Way of the Collective Conscience. The Collective Conscience is unshakable and beyond reproach or reason. The only way to bring about Global Dominion over Thought is to murder any resistance that does not adapt voluntarily, or can not be assimilated forcibly. Of course, this way of thinking exists in many realms, within many dimensions, each called a different name, but all performing the same atrocious act along the Collective Continuum, but it is the Xenophobe that implores the Resistor to ignore such affects of Global Dominion. To resist Global Dominion over Thought stays the Collective from the end of its Institution that it remains incomplete. The Collective Goal is to attain point B from point A regardless of obstructions between. The Resistor acts as obstruction to the Collective Goal, that of accomplishing point B. Within the Collective Conscience, point B means Global Domination, a harmonic Babylon (for in the thinking of the Xenophobe Disorder must be eradicated or Happiness so in pursuit of cannot be had by All until Disorder is no more upon Earth, and Xenophobe's fear conquered by global assimilation of Fear, the unionization of Fear and the Ambition towards Equality in Fear). The Resistant Conscience is obstinate to the linear equation "one plus one equals two" or A + B = C (or more accurately A ® B ® C ® Infinity) so denies the Xenophobe its Happiness or Relief from disjointed Fear. The Fear in the Xenophobe is never attaining the promised Happiness (and consequent release from Anxiety). But, if All were united in the Goal of point B, All could Fear collectively and retire to the benefits of Happiness in the absence of not Fear, but opponents to Fear; in turn, bringing about Happiness the Xenophobe all its lifetime has been in pursuit of and labored for. All would be Comrades, Companions, Brothers in Xenophobia. This idea would be best described as a grid upon a one-dimensional plane. This one-dimensional plane is the Global Conscience occupying all other planes, or Consciences, forcing all other planes to adhere to its dimension, producing multiple single dimensions, with all motion directed in precise fashion to the same end. In effect, a singularity with but one probable direction. Then the All, Global one-ness, a worldwide Babylon, could now as a unit face the fear of Universal Resistance. The Collective Conscience possesses a certain element of "racism", "separatism", "isolationism", and "segregation-ism" which likens the Babylonian Xenophobe to a virus, as it can only Fear, having no self-conscience. A Collective Conscience bound by Fear and Consumption of any resistance to its achievement of Freedom from Disordered Fear.

 

However, Fear in and of itself acts as a destroyer; therefore, a race of beings motivated by Fear must eventually be consumed by Fear, bringing about its own destruction. For it cannot exist under the weight of its own gravitational mass without collapsing. It must grow, or die. Once the Collective goes Global, it has no place to grow save into the Universe, but the Universe is vast and unattainable by traditional means. Out of the ruins of this static arises the Omnipotent Preserver, which is neither Resistor nor Xenophobe. The Omnipotent Preserver superimposes Itself before both the Xenophobe and Resistor, that It becomes sole provider of means to perpetuate either Conscience, like acting as Global Parent to unruly children, while the full extent of Its intentions remain mysterious and unknown. The Global Parent is then Guide and Guardian by manipulating Conflict between the Xenophobe and Resistor creating a Circular Momentum, like the Event Horizon of a Black Hole -- as either Conscience would remain still, if not for the inertia of the Conflict. Conflict occurs because neither conscience has the capability to understand the position of the other. The position of the Xenophobe is that of demanding the attention of the Global Parent (symbolized by Sexual Intercourse with the Mother), and the position of the Resistor is that of seeking detachment from the Parent (symbolized by Murder of the Father). Both Consciences pursue a notion of Happiness, symbolized in Roman Catholicism as Assumption, or ascending to the Heavens to rejoin God. The Babylonian Conscience achieves Happiness through Absence of Resistance to Fear, and the Self-Conscience through the Absence of the Generation of Fear. The Omnipotent Preserver acts as Provider to both. The Global Parent being neutral supplies arbitrary information in an unbiased and unprejudiced medium in order to fit into any way of thinking. Either Conscience projects its Personal Equation onto that of the Global Parent. As ubiquitous Giver and Receiver of all information, the Global Parent is both Priest and Prophet to either Conscience as well as holds the ultimate result in manner of thinking. The position of the other Conscience is constantly displayed on the Theatre of the World by the Global Parent: Xenophobe represented as Warning to the Resistor of a Monster when one is compelled by Fear, and Resistor represented as Demonstration to the Xenophobe of insatiable need to eradicate Resistance to Global Fear. Both ways of thinking are similar in characteristic, habit, and personality; for the Collective Self is but an amalgamation of the Individual Self. If either did not exist, the other would continue in its manner of living, it is that the other brings out the True and Natural Instinctual Tendencies in the other, for better or worse. However, one is about Destruction and the other about Creation, a binary system of Conscience. The Global Parent marries the ways of thinking, symbolized by Revelations in the Bible. The word "revelation" means simply "to reveal" as defined by the original Greek word "apokalupsis" (from which the English word "Apocalypse" is derived): "disclosure :- appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation." It is as if the Global Parent reveals the opposing side to each Conscience, like dancing reflections in a mirror. As omnipresent Supplier and Provider, Critic and Censor of all Information, the Global Parent holds Power over the Fate and Destination of each Conscience, as both consciences derives its way of thinking (about the other and the World about it) from the same fund of Information. In this way, the Global Parent is able to exact a form of control over possible futures or lifetime existence of either conscience, as well as the ability to reduce probabilities of either conscience to a pre-determined and manageable One. The Global Parent's intended result as It nurtures the maturation of Its children could be posited as Superconductivity of Conscience, albeit at the expense of the multiple dimensionality of the Grid, to a sort of Controlled Singularity or a Resolution of Singularity to negative or zero. There is absence of all probability and possibility, save that of the One controlled by Global Parent towards a single pre-determined Future destination. This is carried out through the institution of the Family Unit or the Global Family. By nurturing the natural tendency towards kinship already prevalent within the Conscience, the Family Unit becomes a departmental functionary of the Global Parent and a means to perpetuate the holistic idea of Equality in Fear and essential elements of Xenophobia. In the Family Unit, one is constantly faced with the moral choice "Adapt or Perish", or Comply to Global Conscience or Perish beneath it and symbolized by the Bible's Free Will of Man, yet Man must be obedient to God's Command or Suffer Punishment. The Xenophobe adores this, while the Resistor bears it.

The possibility to Depart the Global Family does, indeed, exist. The solution is to become Observer of the Global Parent, Collective Conscience, and the Self-Conscience, and, most important, all that is unwritten (therefore beyond the control of the Global Parent), like the Primordial Environment Matrix, provider of Terrestrial Information; thereby, all information is derived not from the Global Parent, or World. Rather than a Collective Conscience, Conscience is collected into a Truth through Intrinsic Experience. The Primordial Environment Matrix, or P.O.E.M., is Accuser of man-made Babylon, for it is not invented by the World, therefore, beyond its control, albeit subject of its Scrutiny. One would become Enemy of All, because one is outside of All, beyond the Reach of All, so threat to the Meaning of Life within All. It is an attack upon the Global Conscience and to the fulfillment of its Goal.

Thus we are brought to the advent of the Homo Novous, or New Man, a Fourth Dimension upon the Grid, symbolized in the Messiah, or second coming of Christ, who is beyond All, yet product of All in that Homo Novous borrows the best qualities of the Global interrelationship of three-dimensional Conflict upon the physical plane. The New Man does not suffer Salvation, Destruction, or Creation, but release from such entanglements of thinking, into the Realm of Free Thinking, a deliverance from the old pre-determined, reduced probabilities, to one of Possibilities Infinite; a balance, or the Amalgamation of All Possibilities and Probabilities. The New Man is then relieved of the Burden of Fear, the Incarceration from Fear, and the Manipulation of Fear. A sort of Superconductivity Continuum, which would cause the Obsolescence of the Supernatural Collective Conscience.

A new Factor becomes apparent, that of Intelligence and Intellect. The ability to Use the experience of the Conscience to learn new destinations and probabilities as they arise, symbolized by the idea of Paradise, the Return to Eden, and to a peaceful Eternity in Intellectual Co-Existence--Globally.

It may seem we have reached Conclusion to our Logical Exercise, but we have not even surpassed the limits of our own Existence, for once Homo Novous were customized and habituated by Use, Law of Conscience would eventually become a new Babylonian Way of Thinking, merely another layer of brick on the Tower of Babel. Perhaps, the lesson documented in King James' Version is that we remain trapped by our Ways of Thinking, and that the Omnipotent Preserver be neither Orwellian or Utopian, but simply Is, no more than Motion manifested on the worldly stage, and we are all victims of Its actions, participants us all.

We are Television and must be Applauded

 

No, Campbell, it appears you don't pay attention to what I say, you only pick out the parts that suit your side of the debate, ignoring the rest.

This is the deal: I don't need proof of the bible. I know without a doubt, 100% completely, no torture or any temptation would get me to change my heart, I know that THE BIBLE IS TRUTH. THE BIBLE IS TRUE. JESUS IS TRUTH. JESUS IS THE WORD. JESUS IS REAL. EVERYTHING HE SAYS IS THE TRUEST OF THE TRUE. The proof I have of that is called faith. I have a relationship with G-d built upon the rock of faith.

I'm not in opposition to some basic scriptural sayings. Don't spew out such accusations without some substantiation. I back up my statements with scripture, you never refer to the bible, yet you say I am in opposition to the teachings found therein. What you really mean, is that I don't interpret them the same as you. I don't interpret them at all, I listen to them, and Jesus reveals their meaning to me, completely. What does he say about why he talks in parables to the masses? Do you understand the meaning of each parable. Do you recognize a parable when it's not announced as parable?

The great commission, Matthew 28:19-20 happens to be my favorite. What it says is :
19 *Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 *Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Where does it say 'preach', where does it say 'prove'? Jesus did not tell you to go out and 'preach'. Me neither. Preaching and teaching are worlds apart in definition.

Have you ever baptized anyone?

Where does it say that, besides the book of Genesis, in the flood story? Show me, I'm from Missouri.

John 3:21 *But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 4:23 *But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

John 8:32 *And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

John 14:17 *Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 *¶But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 *Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 17:17 *¶Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 18:37 *Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Romans 9:1 *¶I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 Corinthians 11:10 *As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.

Ephesians 6:14 *Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

Timothy 2:4 *Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 1:14 *Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.

1 John 3:19 *And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

1 John 4:6 *We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:6 *¶This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

These scriptures say, essentially, that despite being naturally wicked, man's heart can house the truth of G-d if he has received the spirit, has been saved. Are you saved, Campbell? Why don't you recognize or claim the Truth?

Out of context! I said even if the bible is the word of G-d, JESUS IS THE WORD.

Do you only read the parts that fit your agenda! Don't insult my intelligence.

Your conclusions are based on your own selective comprehension.

Sure I believe them. Who said I didn't? Again you're putting words in my mouth.

I don't have a belief 'system' I have faith in G-d and the truth of Jesus, the Word.

Then does that mean it is a detestable lie? What is the OT about? The Isrealites. Despite political development, Isreal is not synonymous with Jew. Jew is a much newer term that Israel.

After we find the truth He has given us. You're not ready yet. Believe me.

Matthew 13:34 *All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:13 *And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Mark 4:34 *But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

John 10:6 *This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Do you not think I know that? Religion is a product of Satan, guaranteed, because it inhibits spiritual development. You are the poster child for this. Look up allegory in the dictionary. It doesn't say that allegory cannot be a factual story, at all. Allegory means that something either real or made-up, is used as an instructional tool to teach a difficult concept.

Galatians 4:21 ¶Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.