The Communists are getting power.. again.. Oh GOD!

For f*cks sake - quoting Trotsky about coal production in Russia in 1929? You are insane.

Look - the Czech Republic was one of the wealthiest countries in Europe in 1939. 50 years later, despite only minimal damage in WW2, and it emerged far poorer than the poorest nations in capitalist Europe, whereas war devastated capitalist countries quickly regained their positions among the wealthiest countries in the world. There was no gap in achievements - there was a vast chasm.

Look at capitalist Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore vs. communist China or North Korea. Countries which started at the same level and then diverged so wildly - by all measures of development.

The lessons of history is that communism - or communists trying to create communism - only bring disaster.

I have to say I have about as much respect for apologists for communism as I do for apologists for Nazis. Anyone know how much German coal production rose in the 1930s? Anybody care?

 

I am curious what affect the murder by the state of 43 million citizens during this time period had on Russia's economy. I thought communism was supposed to be a system for the people, did those 43,000,000 people not count?

 

Listen to "Communism"

That guy has his head screwed on right.

Of course the rulers of this shitty country will tell people just about anything to make sure their wealth is safe and secure and they have no reason to share anything.

 

43 million dead Russians might disagree.

But regardless of the atrocities committed by communist governments around the world, if I am clever, ambitious and hard-working enough to start a successful business, why should I not enjoy the fruits of my labor? If I work hard all my life to leave something for my children, why should they not get it? Why should I be forced to support someone else with my hard work?

I am responsible for my own well being, and you are responsible for yours. Why should it be any different? If I want to be a lazy bastard with no ambition and I am content to live on very little, that is my right, but I'll be damned if I'm going to work my ass off all my life just so I can have just as much reward as someone lazier, dumber and less ambitious than myself.

 

very true,

its world wide nearly ,this safe secure capitalitstic view.
not only are cultures being forced into voting for
a western belief ie capitalism,by what ever means
say the russian coal problem..a working class problem
well look in the uk in the miners strike
history was retold.....coal problem a working class problem again....
this was in the 1980s............... so all the past events are
very relivent to todays world........

even the communists struggled against the infected
capitalistic view ,just like what is happening
to iraq..one farse of a government too another..

so how do we change this
well believe all should have a good standard of life
and we should share what this world gives us

thank you
love n peace from saff

 

Why don't you go for the words of the pro-fascist, pro-capitalist Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, who claimed that Stalin killed 60 million people? Or why shouldn't people use yours, 43,000,000, or perhaps the most famous, 20,000,000? Make up your minds, cappies.







And also, Trotsky was very critical to Stalin's rule. Why should he lie about this? It's a book based on facts and analysis. If you can't deal with the fact that socialist countries progressed greatly, then that is your problem, not ours.

 

So, the fact that no one is really sure how many tens of millions of people were murdered in communist Russia means that tens of millions of murders don't count?

Whether or not Russia's economy prospered in this time is irrelevant, because millions were murdered and millions more lost their fundamental human rights, no amount of wealth is worth that. Under Nazi rule, Germany's economy went from one of the worst in Europe, to the stronget economy in the world, but that certainly doesn't mean that anyone should bring back the Nazi party.

 

I see Mui made no challenge to my previous post addressed to him, okay....back to Communism.....

Stalin killed approximently 9 million Russians in the Russian Holocoust, and you have the audactiy to try and excuse what happened becasue of what Trotsky said coal production was in 1929 Russia? You are out of your mind. Who cares if it went up!? The fact is Russia was in poverty for decades, and still is. Why is it that the capitalist nations create wealth and raise standards of living for their entire populous, while socialist/communist states fall into ruin?

You can say, "Oh, not that communism, that wasn't real, try our version!" all you want. We don't want your greedy economic system--we lived under a shitty form of it for decades, and we are sick of it, myself and MY FAMILY included. People want to enjoy what they work for, not have their lives at the mercy of a, "community". Go live on your own community, don't shove it on the rest of us who want to decide what to do with our own wealth--that is the epitome of greed. They want to have religious freedom, freedom of speech, and freedom of the press.

I LIVED UNDER A TOTALITARIAN COMMUNIST GOVERNMENT. I WAS BORN IN Czechoslovakia. MY GRANDPARENTS SUFFERED, MY DAD SUFFERED...go live on a commune as I said, don't force the rest of us to satisfy yours, Mui's, and Sapphires self serving needs/

 

For communism to work, everyone would have to want it to work... That will never happen, so the only way is to force it on everyone, but no one has the right to force their ways on another... So communism hasn't, doesn't, and won't work. I for one, don't want the government to make decision for me, or plan my life out for me... I take all responsability for myself, and as such capitalism works just damn fine. That's how I see it anyway, if anyone has a problem with, well I really don't care...

 

So now it is 9 million? Why not 43 million?


Soulless||Chaos,

Communism is a stateless society. There is no such thing as a government in a communist society.

 

Nobody knows for sure, but hell, it could've been only 9 million russians, then millions and millions of other ethnic groups.


And a stateless society could never work either unless everyone wanted it to work under communism like SC said.. I think Somalia is the perfect example of this.

 

In what way is communism "greedy"? I thought capitalism was, even among pro-capitalists, widely known as the system that promotes greed.

Somalia is not based on communist principles. It's chaos down there. Lack of governemnt doesn't mean chaos, does it?

Then why do anti-communists continue to use, obviously false, unproven numbers?

 

No, not always, but unless you can have everyone want to do the communist system, it could never happen effectivily, and the only way you can make everyone accept it is to force them.

 

What about free will?


I also would like your definition of communism, because many confuse that with what existed in Soviet, etc. I do agree with you that communism needs widespread popularity to work. Socialism (as in Soviet, Cuba etc.) does not. Money is in itself a driving force to work. That is not the case in a communist society.

 

Communism is a stateless and moneyless society where people exchange goods and services or other goods and services. And as for free will, even if you could get some place like say Russia or China to cede of a piece of land for all communist to go to and live, eventually human nature comes in and people try to get more power.

 

Becasue I never said 43 million, anyone can look it up on a simple Histroy text, i can pull it up if you like.

 

Becasue: Everyone is economically equal, no matter what. The hardest worker is going to be at the mercy of the rest of the, "community". He is FORCED, under communism, to share his assets, wealth, and money if his community's people do not have, "enough of their fair share." The fact is he should not have to give what he/she wants to, if they want to give to a charity, that is their business. If I earn my money, I am not under obligatgion, Communism, to share it with you. You seem to think you somehow have access to my paycheck or whatever, and you do not.

 

For those of you who support communism, why don't you practice what you preach? Why don't you donate 100% of your paycheck to charities, until every person in the world has the same standard of living as you?

You may make excuses as to why you don't do this, such as "not everyone else does" or "I do donate...[insert number less than 100]% of my paycheck" but the truth is that you'd rather have an extra Pepsi than feed a starving person halfway around the world, just like most of the rest of us. If you've ever spent money on anything for yourself that was not essential for your survival, then you are a hypocrite. Why don't you people try practicing what you preach, before you decide that the best economic system is for you to force me to do what you won't even do yourselves?

You can start by selling your computer and cancelling your internet service, and instead use that money to give food to Africans.

 

That's the thing though, capitalists make up their minds individually, not collectively. We can think freely and consider different historians' estimates of Stalin's death toll. I guess that's not really something you could relate to.

 

hi there

so we make up are own minds

ok

so here in uk
all the scottish clans made their minds up whilst being
broken by our capitalisms of an imperialistic system.
the welsh have a mind of free will .then, whilst
trying to govern its self after years of a battle against
the uk.
the irish still talking words of peace while the uk
stuggles to run its part of this country,
so here in a capitalistic world,these people
have free will,no they were broken down
torn apart by greed,by the system that allows
the hunger in sudan to carry on,the war in iraq to kill
more ,and most of all the system that lets the royals watch
from thier high places.
so free will is here you say.
no only to ring the bank to ring a friend to text on here
to speak words of peace but never see this happen

we brain wash our children ,in the uk, and we see
this from the sales of feed the world again .

our future is bulit on wars from the idaels of ideas
in a capitalists view , it promoted war
by promoting peace
promoting feeding the world
promotes no hunger......

share the wealth ,let the bog cleaners of the governments
buliding earn the same as the mps..............

by the way marx is very right the system today
was spoken of all those years ago
of unfairness working class struggles.

and you think we have free will now...

thank you love n peace from saff

do not try to change someone even if you think you can
they will see the way weather it takes thier
life times or a second ..it will happen

be whole to view a world past profit and greed.
thats free will.............


t