How can 'we' lose jobs if we are the ones transporting the food out to Africa ? (not that we hopefuly will be)...Won't jobs be created in Africa , and they will be transporting food over to us . Fair trade etc etc of course. Pollution levels will invariably go up..but thats another debate i suppse.
if you were to get rid of subsudies more food would come in from the third world because of things like labour costs ,if you go to tescos you will see things like bags of mixed salad that have been assembled in africa just because of the lower labour costs this is extreamly bad for the enviroment. with no subsudies you would have serious unemployment in the farming industrys ,I would imagine lots of small farms going out of business and larger farms with the destruction of things like hedgerows being created . we wouldnt be transporting food to africa and I dont think that the number of new people employed in the transport industry would be equal the numbers lost in farming
Okay... issue number one... I'm not talking about the nuclear development of Pakistan and India because this discussion is about Africa... yes, there is an issue there about countries that have bought arms... I don't deny that fact... but we were the ones doing the selling and making a tidy profit... surely as the "developed" countries we should be setting the ethical example so we can sit smugly and serenly with a sense of zen like inner beauty... But let's look at the details then... I will endevour to do some research into this issue... but I don't deny it is an issue in SOME countries... but are you applying this as a blanket statement to all the poverty stricken nations that are on the G8 disscussion list?... And I never denied that the issue of corruption and governance needs addressing... like I have attempted to address in my last post... Do I want to "blame the west" as you put it?... no, I want the west to accept its fair share of responsibility... and for the developing countries to accept their share of responsibility too... and then for all countries to work together to achieve a fair solution... for me, that seems the ethically correct thing to do... we are one of the most powerful nations in the world... that comes with a certain responsibility not to take advantage of those who are lesser developed otherwise we, as a nation, lower ourselves to little more than schoolyard bullies... we should be better than that... So... sunshine... don't fucking accuse me of being one sided in what I am saying when I have been happy to conceed the importance of the issues you raise... whereas, so far in this discussion, you have shifted the blame entirely in the direction of the developing nations without the good grace to accept that the west itself holds any responsibility for the situation... And what are you proposing?... that it is fine for the developed nations to subsidise its current levels of wealth and that the developing nations should find other markets?... okay, so take the G8 nations out of the market... and they can sell their goods to who exactly?... oh, that'll be themselves then, eh?... another fine example of free trade... please don't talk utter bollocks... or make an equal suggestion that we should then withdraw from their markets... would that be fair?... somehow, I don't think you give a monkey's arsehole about fairness... only protectionism... isolationism... little englandism... Becaue your last statement reveals your lack of understanding... keeping these nations underdeveloped creates the exact conditions whereby our industries can be offloaded and outsourced and generally shipped over to countries where the wages are significantly cheaper and the corperations can then create even more obscene profits... you need to develop the industries and economies of these countries to a sustainable level so they are not desperate to accept the next batch of call centres that come their way... Feel free to rant away in a biased and unreasonable manner... Fly...
as I understand it what geldof and company are on about isnt just africa its all third world debt so I think that countrys like india and pakistan are part of this . my first job when I left school was working selling arms and its a global business if we dont sell them the chinese and loads of other countrys will. and now you seem to suggest that as well as destroying our farming industry, we should destroy all our companys that make arms and give their jobs to the chinese or whoever.
and what Im suggesting is that the fault for the third world being underdeveloped and starving is largely down to the third world . and unless people stop point the finger at people who have very little responsibility for the third worlds problems, and not at the real cause the people who run these badly run countrys nothing is going to change
You sound just like Maggie Thatcher. Honestly, that little speach could've come straight from a Tory party manifestio.
The Make Poverty History campaign is global, but the current focus on the G8 conference is, as I am aware, only about Africa... and comes out of Blair and Geldof forming the Commision for Africa... of course, I could be totally wrong and, if so proved, will readily admit so... So now you seem to be suggesting that we should choose to behave and opearte as a nation because of what other maybe less ethical nations choose to do... isn't this rather childish?... we must do something because other are doing it... does this extend to other forms of human endevour?... what about the commercial trade in human organs or endangered animal species?... other countries do it, so should we?... at what point do we entirely abandon ethics and morality in favour of the search for profits?... It comes back to the difference between rhetoric and reality... we are part of an economic system that boasts about the benefits of a global economy based on free trade... yet we actually operate a system that cheats the free market... we susbidise our farmers so they are protected from the harsh realities of the free market... but you think it unfair to see that protection being applied to other nations?... are we a nation of hypocrites... Yes you are right... if we really opened our markets to free market trading then the farming industry would suffer... just like the coal mining and steel industries suffered in the 80s when Thatcher was in power... just like the theatre industry suffered when Thatcher cut out susbidies... I am not denying that... but how can force other markets to operate according to rules that we do not apply to ourselves?... either we must help them to grow and develop through application of aid and debt relief and structural reform, or we must open our markets up to free trade and accept the enivitable problems... if not. then we are contributing to the creation and continuation of poverty which is what this is all about to begin with... are we nothing more than a nation of bullshitters and liars and hypocrites?... I hope that we are better than that... Have I noticed you agree with any of my points yet?... Fly...
doc well whether what Im saying is the same as what mrs thatcher was saying doesnt address whether Im right or not . fly even if you limit things to africa Ive shown that just two parts of africa could feed and give basic health care for either the world or africa whichever your $13 billion is supposed to cover by cuting their spending on arms . the arms industry is a funny business I used to know this guy who sold torture equipment and shackles he had this small company that had made shackles since the 17th in birmingham . anyway because of the hassles he was getting in the uk he moved his business to china so us being in the business or not isnt going to make much difference . I think it would be more useful in dealing with the arms industry to put pressure on the buyers not to buy rather on the sellers not to sell . because you are never going to be successful stopping people selling when there are buyers. its pretty easy for example to out source making things like guns to anywhere so instead of selling someone the gun or the electric baton you sell them the licence to produce them or the technology. you cant stop this happening, what you could do that isnt being done is put pressure on the buyers not to spend money on the arms and put the responsibility for their plight on them . thats why I think these protests are counter productive will write more later
Oh look 'the Raven' has arrived.... 'The Army is preparing barracks and military bases in Scotland for use as holding camps if, as police expect, thousands of protesters are arrested during the G8 summit of world leaders next month. The decision to earmark sites where protesters may be held follows warnings from European police forces and intelligence officials that foreign anarchists have already entered Britain and are plotting to disrupt the meeting, to be held at Gleneagles, the luxury hotel and resort in Perthshire, Scotland. Senior detectives have told The Sunday Telegraph that more than 50 dedicated troublemakers with criminal records have slipped into the country, before the imposition of stringent security measures at airports, ferry terminals and on the Eurostar train service in the immediate run-up to the summit. World leaders including Tony Blair and presidents Putin, Bush and Chirac will attend the three-day meeting and police are straining to protect them and keep protesters at bay. There are fears that anarchists from across Europe will mingle with anti-capitalism campaigners in and around Edinburgh, which is expected to be the focal point of demonstrations against the international financial system. Their numbers are likely to be swollen by campaigners for African debt relief, who have been urged to descend on the Scottish capital by Bob Geldof. According to warnings passed by Italian police to their British counterparts, some Italian protesters intend to dangle themselves on ropes from motorway bridges to disrupt traffic. Italian police have also uncovered plans to overturn and set fire to lorries on the main A9 approach road to Gleneagles. Detectives also believe that some anarchists want to blockade the Faslane nuclear base on the Clyde, near Glasgow. Detectives in Scotland and at Special Branch headquarters at Scotland Yard in London, say that protest groups including Ya Basta, which once held a squat on a train and demanded to be taken to a financial summit in Prague, have sent "sleepers" into Britain to organise protests. One Italian anarchist known as "The Raven" entered Britain two weeks ago but police have lost track of him. (thats handy!!!!!!) Some of the information disclosed to senior police officers by Scotland Yard and MI5, the security service, follows the arrest in Rome on May 26 of five suspected anarchists - three men and two women, including their suspected ringleader, Massimo Leonardi - who were planning to target Gleneagles. They revealed that colleagues had already left Italy for Britain. In a related investigation, police raided 80 homes in Bologna and other central and northern cities, targeting two further anarchist groups intending to visit Gleneagles. One senior detective who monitors anarchist groups said: "There are close connections between British groups such as Class War and foreign groups such as Ya Basta. "We know that some Italian anarchists have already entered the country and are staying at squats and safe houses with British sympathisers. They are planning major violent disruptions to the Gleneagles summit and we will be powerless to stop them." The army bases earmarked to hold arrested protesters include the Dreghorn and Redford barracks, and the bases of the 2nd Division Craigiehall and the 51 Scottish Regiment, all within a 20-mile radius of Gleneagles. Police are concerned that Geldof's call for a million people to descend on the city will provide perfect cover for anarchists, and fear a repeat of the violence at the 2001 Genoa summit in Italy. There, hundreds were injured, one man died after being run over by a police vehicle, and the crowds were eventually dispersed by armed police using tear gas. Assistant Chief Constable Ian Dickinson, of the police force which covers Gleneagles and Edinburgh, said: "A million people coming to Edinburgh - it is difficult to conceive how they could all get to this area in the first place and where they could assemble safely. No one wants tragedy to distract world attention from the aims of the campaigners." The grounds of Gleneagles and much of the surrounding area will be fenced off and patrolled during the meetings, but one group, calling itself the People's Golfing Association, plans to invade the hotel grounds and golf course and disrupt the first-day photocall of the G8 leaders. Dissent, a south London-based anti-capitalist group, has called for supporters to blockade roads around the resort on July 6. Some foreign anarchists also intend to storm Edinburgh's leading financial institutions including Standard Life and the Royal Bank of Scotland and stage sit-ins. Police said the plans were discussed at a "conference of anarchists" in Nottingham earlier this month. In response, police will mount their biggest ever operation in Scotland, with more than 5,000 officers on duty instructed to enforce a zero-tolerance policy and arrest anyone breaking the law. Police intend to set up road blocks in a 40-mile radius of Edinburgh and Gleaneagles and say they will use the Public Order Act 1988 - originally intended to control outdoor raves - to detain people and disperse crowds. Intelligence officers said that S26, an international anarchist umbrella group, originally formed to organise protests in Prague against the International Monetary Fund/World Bank conference there on September 26, 2002 - hence its name - was orchestrating some of the protest actions. Class War, a veteran British anarchist outfit, some of whose 200 activists have declared their support for violence, especially against property, is expected to take part in protests. The so-called Wombles (White Overall Movement Building Liberation through Effective Struggle), the largest of the three, is an anti-capitalist group formed in 2002. A spokesman for the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland said: "We will be properly prepared for any eventuality. We have said all along that, while we will facilitate lawful protest, we will deal with anyone who wants to cause disruption."' http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/12/nglen12.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/06/12/ixportal.html Fear mongering, disinformation, Ravens etc, etc, etc. Makes you think that someone wants a ruck....and I'm not talking about the anti-capitalists. Same old same old. I for one shall as always go as peaceful as I can....until someone tries attacking me with a truncheon.
I did say i knew you were joking. I only said what i said as a comment, thats why i also stopped the lickle rant i could have had about your posts by saying it was not realy about you or me. You could give a fuck about local business or you could not .. i dunno, i will go with you do to a certain degree. If we agree on certain things it was not very evident ?... great if we do. No i understand irony alright, just like i was saying 'mixed messages' thats all i was getting at. Nothing to profound or anything (and none of your jokes young man ).
