The Old Testament

Yeah, OK, and you point is...?

because the verses you referenced DO NOT support your position or convey what you are implying.

For instance; concerning the last quote; Whoever breaks........(you can read it above), do you know what the "commandments are that Jesus is referring to????????

1) Love the Lord your God with all your heart
2) Love your neighbor as thyself (paraphrasing but I hope you comprehend)

He also went on to explain that ALL the law was contained within those two simple precepts.

and Jesus DID fulfill all the law and the prophets, but you wouldn't understand an iota of it as I already somewhere mentioned about how darn near EVERY aspect of the Law, the Temple, the sacrifices, etc,etc, ARE allegorical prophecy pointing to Jesus.
Now of course your Rabbi mentor never would have pointed out the numerous subtleties of the law that Jesus fulfilled, the law concerning a kinsman redeemer for instance, because they are rather blatant who/what they are pointing too.

Now that OWB has joined the discussion, I wonder if Still Kicking will finally realize that he way out of his league when it comes to Biblical knowledge with the cadre of posters who have joined in.:mickey:

 

No, the Bible is not at odds with itself.

Jesus was the end of the Law because as you mention he fulfilled the law thus ending the law for those who practice faith in Jesus.

PS you can cite scripture all you want, give the place where the verse can be found, as I did but it is the quoting of scripture, as you have done, that is prohibited but most let it slide a little as long as it's not excessive and directly applies to your point.

 

Hi NoxiousGas, how's it going?

 

:seeya:

Just being my usual a**hole self.

 

Apparently I am not the only one who believes there are discrepancies in the bible:
http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080216/news_1c16problemm.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

So, we read the passages in the bible, one tells us one thing, another tells us an entirely different thing regarding the very same subject, that is the bible being at odds with itself. If the bible says the world was created in a certain order, and then, shortly later, tells us that it was created in another order, that is being at odds with itself.
So far, the christians here just try to cover these things up, they just claim it is not so, yet are unable to back up those claims with any facts.
The words are there, it says what it says. People seem to think there is some sort of code in those words, and that they have to be interpreted in some manner in order to understand them. If we are to believe the truth of the bible, then it should just mean what it says, and not have to be subject to interpretation.

The links I provided contain references to works by many other people who have studied the matter, so this is not just my personal opinion.

Please don't resort to just making an unsubstantiated claim, like the others here have done, and continue to do.
This:

is merely conjecture, and your opinion. If you don't mind, please provide something that you believe substantiates it. At least some sort of logical reasoning as to why you think this negates the fact that the bible is at odds with itself when it clearly makes statements in one verse, then contradicts itself in another.

The material I quoted clearly says the the supposed Jesus is saying that the old laws are to be followed forever. Your quote says that they do not, yet this:
'Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.
pretty clearly states that the supposed Jesus claims to have come to uphold the "Law" (assumed to be the law found in the old testament, since there was not other at the time in regards to this subject) so there can be no end to that "Law", it is being upheld, and then would have to be considered still valid to all who profess an allegiance to this religion.

This

For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
is not talking about just the law, it is saying until ALL is fullfilled.

This

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
clearly states that anyone who breaks those laws, the original ones that the previous statements claim to uphold, and teaches others to do so, will be called "the least in the kingdom of heaven", but those who adhere to them and teaches them as the law, will be otherwise.

 

Too bad he's ignoring me considering I already addressed the above^^.

Still Kicking you have such a fundamentally WRONG understanding of Christianity and Judaism that ANY point or argument you attempt is in error from the first word you type.
Haven't you yet figured that out. I mean people have been telling you this very thing across three threads.

Still Kicking the problem is not with the Bible or with Christians, the problem is that your comprehension of the matter is lacking.

Then we add that you have already stated that you are not going to be moved from your position.
So why the Hell are you bothering with these threads. You certainly do not possess the knowledge or education in the subject that you purport to, that much has become obvious.

Your methodology for information gathering, interpretation and drawing conclusions is SOOOOOO flawed as to render it a joke.
I'm guessing you have no actual background in conducting research or constructing experiments or experimental hypothesis, because you have made just about every blunder that would render your "work" as laughable among scholars in the field.

You don't understand thedope because he speaks from a place of experiences which you have never had, therefore it sounds foreign to you, and your incapable of grasping that absent experience, you have no basis to discount another person's experience.

You really are way over your head when it comes to Theology, Biblical doctrine and history if you want to go toe-to-toe with Okiefreak.

OWB has a solid and firm understanding/faith of Christianity as well as a good command of the Bible.
Again, your over your head.

I annoy you because I, rather than take up the topic directly, have illustrated the holes in your logic and reasoning that make your arguments completely erroneous.

I am not saying the topic or your idea for the thread is erroneous, not at all.
It is your methodology that is horribly flawed and that flawed methodology taints your entire position.

But of course your ignoring me, but at least others can read my posts.

 

I too am WAY out of my league in this arena, as Nox said of another. I hesitate to even stick my nose it. I read through this out of interest in what Nox was posting and im struck with two things. There's some pretty serious discussion here that is mostly civil on subjects that are tremendously complicated. And two, it's a bit of a lesson to me on ways to disagree without being disagreeable.
Seems I could learn a thing or two from some of you cats. :sunny:

Exactly what makes religion and their texts controversial and the basis for so much conflict in the world. What little I know about these matters is...
1.The old texts where written in mostly dead languages and cultures.
2.Their interpretation is by nature open to debate. Hence, disagreements.
3.Complicating matters further are the various translations, some with good intent, others with the specific goal of manipulating societies.

My favorite example of above is the use of the word "Yom" in the creation story. As much as any, the Genesis story is ammunition for disbelievers to discredit the Bible. This one singular passage distills much of this thread down to an illustrative point.
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/sixdays.html
To me it's apparent that the original writings never intended to say that the heavens and the earth were created in 6 days. However this one point, more than any I hear atheists and anti bible people make, doesn't dismiss the Bible in my view when one grasps the concept of the word Yow.
More than any, it seems this is a perfect example of the difficulty of coming together on religion.

Myself, I seek to find common ground. Not convert you, nor diminish others. To seek what makes us all the same, regardless of culture, values or belief systems.

Lastly, you guys are some seriously studied folk. :love:

 

Hmmmm... fan or stalker

JK

Nice of you to pop in Voyage.
Yes, often we forget that time is a not a fixed constant and as such, to try and constrict the mentioned references in Genesis to our concept of time and what constitutes a day is an erroneous assumption.

I did always assume that most intelligent people understood that it was simply a means of denoting a specific passage of time and not literally 24 hours.


Good link Voyage:2thumbsup:

I guess Still Kicking's Rabbi mentor forgot to point this out to him.

 

You must be making reference to the "thousand years is but a day to the Lord" thing.

 

Both? :cheers2:

As I hinted, I'm not going to engage here cause I am way out of my league on the topic.
I have tho been posting in discussions as a way to try to improve my writing and discussion skills. This thread is a good one if not a bit hard to follow with my limited knowledge on the subject. What stood out was several posts that sound to me like discussion, not arguing.
Seems to me discussion can bring people together and enlighten if it's not about winning. I like that idea.

 

:2thumbsup:
Yes, I routinely check whenever I see you've posted in a thread. I'm sure we all have folks that we check to see what they have to say regardless of the subject matter.

You do fine in conveying your point.

 

the Oracle .

Moses called for the Oracle , and it was brought to him .

 

Well based on New Testament texts and personal experience it is through the Spirit of God which flows through the life of a "real" Christian. It is the Spirit that provides guidance and instruction and brings clarity and life to scriptural concepts.

 

The holy spirit that teaches all things.

Holy as in, awe inspiring, having a character that evokes reverence.

The instruction is that the world is to wonder at and appreciate in every extent, and we loose sight of this when we condemn.

Of course, you can calls me ray.

 

Oh there are plenty of people that think the Bible has discrepancies and even trying to prove it but that doesn't make you or them correct.

The problem is that you want the Bible to be at odds with itself, so you don't read to understand but to find things that appear contradictory but when understood are not contradictory at all.

But it doesn't and so is not at odds with itself.

I don't know what you are trying to say, I gave you a scripture that backs what I said, what more do you want.

True but what happens is that people, such as yourself, try to "understand" the Bible using preconceived thoughts and ideas that interfere with understanding what the Bible is actually saying.

Just because you agree with what others say doesn't make what you and they say correct, no matter how many say it.

Also if it is not your opinion then what is your opinion?

Like I said I made a claim and backed it up with what the Bible says on the subject, which makes it a substantiated claim.

No it was not my "conjecture and opinion", I took the scriptures that you quoted and since you weren't using them, used them to prove my point.

You said;
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Till it is fulfilled, get it?

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

What did Jesus come to do? To fulfill the law and since he fulfilled the law, Christians are not under obligation to obey the law.

And what religion would that be? The Jews were under the law but Gentiles were never under the Law and thus were never obligated to follow it and the Christian congregation was never asked to obey it.

And Jesus fulfilled it.

Again, at the time this was said the law had not been fulfilled and the Christian congregation was not yet formed.

Your original question was about Christians following the Law and as of yet you have not provided anything but your opinion to show that Christians, not Jews but Christians are under any obligation to follow the Law or ever were.

 

OlderWaterBrother


Thanks for sharing your opinion, however, in the absence of any compelling evidence to the contrary, I will stick to my assessment concerning the matter.

 

Yes, from my experience.
It is definitely "other than me" and any related phenomena is unlike any other experience I have had.

 

Thanx for being so dismissive, I can see now that you are not interested in what others have to say, only in your own opinions. So I will leave you in your ignorance of the matter. If you ever want to actually discuss the matter let me know.