The ONLY way for the universe to exist is..

It’s Arrogant! Everyone is so positive their statements are right… The ONLY way … MUST be…

I’m an idiot! We are a race of idiots, some of our most intelligent IDIOTS create entire careers dreaming up crazy theories about the universe. String theories and eleventh dimensions, “If this chalkboard full of pretentious nonsense equals that chalkboard full of self affirming contrived bull shit… yes I’ve done it, I’ve secured my funding… uh, I mean I’ve discovered another dimension!!”

 

As long as everyones 'positivity' (or reason) is open to more, I wouldn't worry too much. Conviction is ultimately stupid, but truth is ultimately infinite.

 

Occam works by validation. By proof in the real world.
I's what occam does
There can be no validatin in any world that is not real.
For it does not exist.

Occam

 

Relaxxx

Exactly

 

...

two words for you

String Theory

GOOGLE the following: THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE

Go watch it again, and embrace it man... that is the future!

 

Well, seeing as that a force "outside the universe" (a logical and semantical paradox btw, if you are somewhere, then you are within the universe ((if you define the universe as everything))) is only 'god' because you defined it as such. I don't think that proves the existence of god or a creator.

And you don't need a force outside the universe, or a force within. hell, you don't even need the universe to be 'created' (and if the big bang and m-dimensional theory is true, you can't 'create' at the birth of the universe, cause time didn't exist yet.)

It's turtles ALL the way down.

I find a little bit of conviction refreshing in our world. everybody is so wishy-washy, it's nice to come across someone who is willing to put his balls on the chopping block, even if they are wrong.
if athiests were 1/10th as passionate as christians we'd be living in an athiest nation.

I have my doubts about string theory, but it did open my mind to muliple dimensions (which creates a whole new level of logical thought). I liked "hyperspace" by Michael Kaku better than the elegant universe.

 

Thanks Dude,

I'll check that one out

 

Yeah i don't understand this subject, because how did the very very beginning of time start?? How did matter first come up at the beginning of time? There just HAS to be a REAL answer!! too bad we will never know. EVEN THOUGH It makes NO sense Whatsoever, there just has to be an answer. Just like how i believe there Is an answer for what happens when you die.

 

If anyone actually ever knows the REAL truth to those answers, than they deserve to be called God.

 

By whose definition? Traditionally, God is worshipped not because (S)he is the First Cause, but because of various attributes like intelligence,omnipotence, omniscience, etc., that humans ascribe to divinities. A blind, unthinking force outside the universe probably wouldn't be regarded by most of us as God,whether it brought our universe into being or not..

 

This is bollocks. Firstly, because the laws of physics are a construct of man - A best-guess at explaining how things are and not necessarily how they really are. Secondly, I don't know where the idea that God is a force outside the universe comes from. The classic attributes usually given to God are that he is infinite and eternal. I take that to mean that god is and has always been present in everything that exists, ie. the universe.


That's what I think.

 

Ok ... now define reality.

 

Nika

Reality.. is all that exists.


Occam

 

Again, that's your definition of reality. A definition which can only define those things within the comprehension of those who invented it.

Whereas a God, by definition, defies definition. It defies reality. It cannot be boxed or described - even by what overconfident mammals anxious to disprove it have come up with.

 

Grim

God, as occam defines such.. Defined the laws which allow us to define.
It is not outside reality. but, like an architect, draws up plans to allow this observable universe to be what it is in the the greater scheme of reality.
For reality is FAR larger than our universe.
Do you imagine what we can see is all there is?

LOL.. what hubris

Occam

 

I don't see why I have to accept or care about occam's definition of something nothing can define.
...and if I am the one arguing for the existance of God in some form, I am obviously espousing there being far more than we can see.

 

Grim

You dont have to do either. You just have to exist.. or not.

Yes , but you argue that god is 'outside' reality.. That god 'made it'
this cannot be.
NOTHING. is outside of reality. and reality has always existed. and always will.
It is so simple... why do people refuse to see it?
Because they cannot fit in their heads something without a beginning or end.
Occam

 

According to what, Occam?
Your definition of reality? Someone elses who you choose to believe and follow?

Not mine.

 

Grim

Yes..mine.
Incorrect. My own creation. i 'follow' no person.

Reality is infinite in duration.. it has no beginning or end.
But it does have physical limmit.
Folded appon itself it is the spindle of all things.
Our univers is but a facet of the spindle.
A small thing.

You may call this rubbish, or a dream.
Occam cares not.
For it is what it is.
It cares not if you believe it.. it still is.


How did our universe come to be if it was not part of a greater whole.
Things dont just 'appear'
No matter what religion says.
'God' designed... it being the designer.
A PART of reality and a product of it.
And our observable universe came to be.
Not from 'gods will'.
But from technology.
A trillion years of it.

You exist, how? Magic?
'any sufficiently advanced technology will appear to us.. as magic'

Occam

 

By saying the universe had a beginning implies that "something" must have brought it into being and that "something" must be god is just sidestepping the question. By your logic, whatever the creating force is, it must have had a creator. So where did god come from? And where did god's god come from? etc...

I cannot tell you where the universe came from, but it is a very good question. But just because we don't know doesn't mean it's god. We didn't know what the sun was, so we invented ra the sun god. Now we know, and we don't need ra. But like I say, the origin of the universe is a very good question. It's what drives me to learn physics.

Something that most people do not grapple with is the likelyhood that time is merely an illusion. The universe has at least 5 dimensions (probably more). What this is, is a multidimensional, unmoving structure, in which one of the dimensions is time. Time is an imaginary dimension, in the sense that sqrt(-1) is an imaginary number. Skipping a lot of steps that do actually exist, it can be shown that the result is the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that as a whole, entropy increases, and the universe becomes more unordered in the direction of the time axis. Because of this, the chemical reactions that store memories in our brains can only do so along the time axis - We can only remember events in one direction: The positive direction along the time axis. This all gives the illusion of time flowing.

A universe can theoretically have many other combinations of real and imaginary dimensions. Even multiple time axes. The properties (such as concepts of time and space) of our universe are defined by the number and types of dimensions it has. It is entirely possible that whatever it is that lies outside our universe has properties that are unimaginable to us. We probably would not be able to develop ways to sense out side our universe, so any theories we have about what lies outside that could have possibly created the universe will never be able to be tested. So the question of where our universe comes from is most likely impossible to determine. Knowing this, I would at least settle for a reasonable theory as to how the universe came into being. And the theory that god created it is not a workable theory since it doesn't state how god created the universe, and doesn't provide any properties what-so-ever about what this god thing is.

p.s. I hope this made sense... it's aproaching 2am.