With a growing (widthways) and increasingly unhealthy population, we are placing increasing strains on healthcare... a fat tax is mainly a way to discourage unhealthiness but with the added bonus of directly increasing funding for the extra load unhealthy activity places on the NHS...
When the government are wasting billions on Wembley Stadium and the Millenium Dome, et al, and running the health service into the ground, and encouraging benefit children by supporting non-working families, blaming fat people for health service costs is just a no-brainer i'm afraid, no offense. The costs are minimal compared to real money wastes. Do you not find it at all odd that they do not promote anti-drinking as much as they do anti-fat and anti-smoking campaigns? I can assure you that drinking is a far worse problem in this country.
I don't think this debate is considering governmental priorities, just the merits of the idea on its own terms. Isn't it? I agree excesive drinking is indeed a massive problem which also places a huge strain on the NHS. There have been anti binge drinking campaigns quite recently, and alcohol is already pretty highly taxed.
I don't think i can consider the question without thinking about the issues raised by it. If the question is purely "Should people be taxed for being fat", then the answer HAS to be no. Well, i don't see any anti-binge drinking ads on TV, only anti-drink driving campaigns. And certainly not anywhere remotely close to the hysteria stirred up by anti-smoking promotion. And considering contracting cancer through passive smoking has yet to be medically proven, i think it's desperately unfair, when drunks run through wild at night smashing property, making noise and assaulting people. Not to mention drink-driving of course! I've always been 2 stone overweight for my height according to the official regulations, since the age of ten or so. Despite the fact my diet and exercise was exactly the same as my brother, who is in the second lowest fat group, i.e., skinny. We were both born the way we were, we are just different. I don't see why i should be taxed for being naturally larger than someone else.
The "government priorities, Millenium Dome!" issue is always a bit of a red herring in debates like these. Obesity probably isn't the most pressing problem, but it is a growing problem, and we want to encourage people to be healthy. I would totally agree about not penalising people for being fat or denying them healthcare. But a tax which targets unhealthy eating and incentivises healthy eating seems like a good idea to me. You don't punish the crack addict for being addicted, but you try to encourage less self-destructive behaviour...
Its you own fault and kids being obese is the parents' fault! On the personal fault isn't it just like smoking?! You choose to smoke yourself and what are you doing? Yep killing yourself - same with eating! Right?! So wy not have the fat content or a warning on it in a big black font! Maybe taxing Pasties would help! Hummmm! That would not be nice!
There's also the dimension of societal impacts. For one, junk food is pushed on kids heavily by advertising campaigns. It looks pretty, it tastes good, mummy I want it - I was a sucker for it when I was a kid. Also, for families with lower incomes, it is recognised to be that much harder for them to buy the healthiest options. That's not all there is to it, of course, a lot of it is personal choice, but our choices are never quite as personal as we might think....
Well, that's the point. I don't think it is a growing problem at all. I wouldn't deny that people are getting fatter, they obviously are. I deny that this is a social problem however. In fact it is a social norm, if current figures are to be believed. The health costs are not so extreme at all, it's a fallacy that we are paying more for fat people. And that's why i mention all the other wasteage of money the government create, it's entirely pertinent to the conversation, why pick on someone for their lifestyle when it would be far more effective and beneficial to save money in more convenient and fair areas? Plus, the health risks of being overweight are way exaggerated by government scientists, then exacerbated by media hype and misunderstanding. As soon as you start taxing people for their size then you ARE punishing a person, not just "helping" them to make the "right" choice. You are talking about forcing the majority of people (if government obesity figures are to be believed) to change their entire lifestyles just to fit the moral ideals of the minority, and that's not even mentioning the fact that it's picking on the poor and disadvantaged, who will always make up the majority of overweight people in society. I don't believe that you would even be thinking about this issue if the media wasn't saturated with misleading facts and deliberate fear-mongering. And out of interest, what did you think about my point in my previous post, that i would be penalised for my weight and my brother wouldn't, simply due to the way we were both born slightly different sizes? You didn't answer my question there, would that be fair?
After watching "Fuck Off, I'm fat!"... I think we should all put some weight on... Seriously.... Fat is the new Thin
So who should be punished, who should be discriminated against, who can be insulted or derided? How fat is fat? Is it simply a matter of the red line on the Body Mass Index, all those above ‘Normal’ or below are deemed ‘abnormal’? (here is a BMI calculator - http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/bmi-m.htm) So should all the abnormals be taxed more and given less benefits? Maybe they should wear a patch with a crossed knife and fork on it, just so we can point?
Given that obesity is undoubtedly related to health risks (increased chances of heart disease, arterial sclerosis, etc) and that rates of childhood obesity are increasing - don't you think it's a good idea to encourage people to make healthy choices in their dietary habits? If the other stuff you wrote is directed at me then it's misdirected, I agree wholeheartedly that a tax which targets fat people would be unjust. A tax on unhealthy foods is a quite different issue.
You asked that before. I don't think anyone would agree that any of those things are a good idea... Does the rhetorical straw man argument have a point?
Of course, i thought i made that obvious in me posts above. I was just pointing out the differences between pointing people in the right direction, and forcing them to do something. Ah, ok. It seems we agree with each other then!
i have a firend.. she was fat all through college and most of her years of uni.. she alway used the "its genetic, i cant lose it", and "i'm big boned" excuses.. and then oneday she really did get fed up with being fat, and so started eating healthily and doing regular excersise, and now she looks gorgeous.. she still has genetically big bones... but they just have less fat on them now. ask yourself a question... when was the last time you went jogging with your fat friend.. laziness is not genetic.. but generally results in overweight-ness. and i'm sure that there are incidences where wieght gain is genetic... but i'm sure that diet is more of a factor and genetics is used as a convienient escape clause for those who are overweight. all in all.. diet and exercise dictate bodywieght.. genetics is really not, or shouldn't be an issue.
“So who should be punished, who should be discriminated against, who can be insulted or derided?” “You asked that before. I don't think anyone would agree that any of those things are a good idea... Does the rhetorical straw man argument have a point?” The point is who decides what beauty is? For example Peace now thinks his friend is ‘gorgeous’ but what was she before, hideous? Was she undeserving as a human being? Why? Was she a nasty person that tortured bunnies and spit roasted babies? No, she was fat That means she wasn’t ‘gorgeous’, wasn’t deserving of been thought that way. Why? Because of her looks alone? Wouldn’t it have mattered if she was a wonderful person or a kind and thoughtful individual that’s not what people see, that’s not what makes a person gorgeous. The thing is that people can see appearances and so it doesn’t matter what a person is like many just gauge a persons looks and see those as dictating how a person is. The thing is that outward appearances and what they mean are often cultural perceptions and change from society to society as well as in time and location. Remember women were once thought to ‘flighty’ to be given the vote, black people were (and in some places still are) thought to be incapable of achieving the levels of intelligence of white people, and having a ‘Jewish’ appearance could once send you to a concentration camp. So fat people are thought of as lazy and unhealthy. The only problem is that I know of a lot of ‘fat’ people that are anything but lazy they work damned hard at their jobs or at their studies. I’ve also known ‘fat’ people that are healthier than me and I’ve always been ‘normal’ according to the Body Mass Index. I’ve also met people that conform to this society’s idea of being ‘gorgeous’ and they have turned out to be any but gorgeous people. ** So as I said who decides who is ‘normal’ and gets access to fertility treatment etc, and who gets to be called the opposite of gorgeous?
well.. welcome to the western world 2006, where big was but certainly is no longe beautiful... your argument about women and black people is nice but irrelivent... you cant change the colour of skin, nor can you change your sex.. and neither of these as we now know effect intelligence. however you can choose to ride a bike instaead of driving to the shop.... you can choose to walk to work instead of catchin a bus.. you can choose to eat fresh fruit instead of lard burgers... my (smartie not peace) friend was a gorgeous person.. but she was a bit fat.. now shes gorgeous inside and out, she knows it.. and is happier for it.. she is now not embarrassed to look at herself naked in the mirror. "how can i expect other people to look at me when i cant look at myself" i believe she said to me... i know some people would think that big is beautiful.. and fair play to them.. i wish them well.. but for the majority overweigt is not attractive and is considered to be quite unhealthy. i'm sure your fat friend works hard.. but working hard sat at a desk all day is not excersise. if it were we would be a much healtier world.
i know some people would think that big is beautiful.. and fair play to them.. i wish them well.. but for the majority overweigt is not attractive and is considered to be quite unhealthy. And I’ve I said this can be a cultural thing, I mean as I was trying to point out why do the majority consider anything ‘normal’ or ‘right’? If your friend hadn’t been taught to hate how she looked she wouldn’t have hated herself (in the same way that if fat was thought of as beautiful thin people would hate the way they look). As to being healthy or fit, I’ve addressed that earlier, many now consider it is also based on an opinion of what some people have come to judge as being ‘normal’ and therefore healthy. What I’m trying to say is why do we judge? Is it conditioning or is it genuine concern?
Cos people are weak-minded and petty, and desperately want to think that they are better than someone else in this world, and like to be told what to think by people they perceive to be more knowledgable or important than them. Humankind isn't very nice in general, as far as i am concerned, the word Humane is an utter misnomer.
