The sins and the virtues:

I am seeking the answer to one very specific question at this point, and you have the answer, and the answer is not to be found in a book, and you are the one refusing to give it to me. You are stunting my growth here, not Christianity.

I've read many books. None of them contain your answer to the question that I put to you. It would be absurd to expect them to.

 

Red! Haha I didnt know you migrated over to this part of the forums :tongue:

 

I've been frequenting here for some time now. To be honest, I'm annoyed that it is impossible to join any of the threads in a meaningful way as some of the regular posters here have nothing better to do than to fill threads with nothing but absolute bollocks.

 

Agreed. I love the people here, but I cant take a part in these kinds of conversations and arguments either, so I pretty much quit posting here for now

 

It's funny because I got love for both neodude and Fedup, I know them both fairly well and enjoy talking to them, but when they put on the gloves Im just outside the ring

 

"How can you justify suggesting a sin that everyone would be born with, as someone who is opposed to Christianity?"


Notice that I am willing to repost something that I have previously said when asked, something you have almost consistently refused to do.

 

???

 

------------ This is not a response to any single posting in this thread ------------


Seems that we all make decisions on the way things appear to us based on our perceptions. When we become upset with someone, for any reason whatsoever, it is out of our perception of the way things appear to US. And "upset" here is anything that would not be considered the normal mode of functioning on a moment-to-moment basis. A small word carrying a broad implication.

We all have a way of thinking in this realm of existence which is as diverse as there are diverse appearances of beings. No two people think alike. For that matter, no two people smell alike, see alike, hear alike, taste alike, or feel alike. At not in this realm of existence. Perhaps if we lived in the realm the Hindu, Jains, or Buddhists call the Bhrama realms then we would all have the same identical perception of things, and in some cases would all share the same appearance.

But, because we have these perceptions that are not the same, as thinking rationing beings, we lean toward tendencies of relying on our own perceptions as being the correct ones, even at the risk of saying others perceptions are not correct if they conflict with our own. After all, we've been doing these things all our lives, and if we are still alive then that would mean we are doing something right ... right? So then it would stand to reason that our mode of existence is the correct one ... our mode of thinking ... our way of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling ... it has to be the right one because ... here we are.

One will never relinquish to the fact that every being has a varied way of perceiving reality.

If "they" don't see things the way "we" do, we become disippointed with them ...

If "they" don't see things the way "we" do, we become impatient with them ...

If "they" don't see things the way "we" do, we become angry with them ...

If "they" don't see things the way "we" do, we hate them ...

If "they" don't see things the way "we" do, we want to kill them ... to destroy them ... to make them extinct.

Somewhere in-between all those "If ..." statements there's an area where, because these beings who have tendencies to disagree with us, we want to insult them, call them names, tell them they are the ones being mis-informed, tell them "they" are having problems, they are insane, ... their way of perceiving things is wrong, incorrect ... because it does not correspond to my way of thinking it is therefore wrong.

But ... my way of thinking is like everyone elses ...

No ... It is not ... you may agree on how you perceive things ... you may even agree on how you accomplish this to get that result ... but others do have various ways of doing something to get the same result.

So, because someone has a different ... and the keyword here is different ... idea of the way things are ... which by the way doesnt agree with our idea of the way things are ... we most absolutely develop tendencies of insulting that person in various ways either physically or verbally so as to upset their normal mode of existence until they see things the way we do ...

Seems to me this is coercion ... intimidation ...

If you want me to stop insulting you, personally attacking you, you had better agree with me, or else ... you are a wanker ... or else ... you have a major league comprehension problem ... or else ... people like you that are so consumed by hate for someone that doesn't subscribe to your flavor of insanity ... or eise ... I merely give the same bullshit it spews forth ... or else ... [so-and-so] would be the biggest sinner around ... or else ... you were misinformed and uneducated ... or else ... your just a lying troll ...

These are all perceptions ...

If you don't see (understand) things the way I DO, then YOU are the one with the problem, not me.

If you don't understand things the way I DO, then it is YOU who are consumed by hate, not me. I hate you for hating me ...

What I see is that this absurdity is not realizing the absurdity in it.

What is it every being wants more than anything in all of existence?

These are questions one should be pondering ... but from the looks of this thread, such ponderings will degenerate as well into absurdity.

So ... from my own observations ... here's what I see ...

I see one person pushing their own views of reality to the point of name calling. And I see another person pushing their own views of reality to the point of name calling. And I see both people who are doing the name calling saying they are being personally attacked for name calling. Tell me this doesn't look (appear) absurd.

I also see one person claiming others are consumed with hate, while exuding this very same hate to make the claim. Tell me this doesn't look (appear) absurd.

So, Im gonna add my thoughts to this thread's original posting ...

I really have no idea why these are called "deadly". They're just words and they have no deadly attributes or qualities about them. Now poison, that's deadly if ingested, but not deadly if it's just sitting in the bottle untouched or unnoticed. Fire, that's deadly if you happen to get caught in it and can't get out, but not deadly when you use it to cook your food or heat up your drink or use it to keep warm when cold.

Lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride ... they are all various words of the same action ... and that action being greed. Greed is a motivating action. It motivates our perception when contact is made between our senses and the objects associated with our senses. Greed has many forms, as the list above illustrates, and more. Ill-will is also a motivating action. And ignorance is a motivating action.

Greed pushes one to crave. Craving results in pursuit. Pursuit results in gain. Gain results in decision making. Decision making results in desire and lust. Desire and lust results in attachment. Attachment results in possessiveness. Possessiveness results in stinginess. Stinginess results in safeguarding. And safeguarding results in various evil phenomena such as taking up of clubs, guns, and knives, conflicts, quarrels and disputes, insulting speech, slander, and falsehoods.

Greed leads to ill-will. Not getting what one wants results in disappointments. Continued disappointment results in impatience. Continued impatience results in anger. Continued anger results in hatred. Hatred ends in violence, killing, extinction.

I can agree that Patience is a virtue because it puts an end to violence, puts an end to hatred, puts an end to anger, puts an end to impatience, puts an end to disappointments. Compassion is a result of Patience. Peace-making is a result of Patience. Gentleness is a result of Patience.

But there are also other virtues not mentioned here. Virtues such as Giving (charity), Ethics, Effort, Concentration, and Wisdom. Hospitality is a result of Giving. Charity is a result of Giving.

Virtues are much like antidotes are to poisons. They are the antidotes to motivating actions of greed, motivating actions of ill-will, and motivating actions of delusion, confusion, indecisiveness, ignorance.

My "two cents" ...

Any further degeneration from the topic will result in this thread being closed.

HTML:

 

When you said that being misinformed should be a sin. In another words, immediately before you were asked the question. Pay attention.

:nopity:

 

You could just talk about the actual thread topic, but you've thus far refused. You only seem willing to post anything vaguely sensible once you've dragged the thread you're in onto the subject of you and how you lost your faith, and now that you've admitted to being a caricature I don't really know why anyone would care.

 

hey come on that's not fair.

i've been staying out of it more or less for awhile now.

 

Best. Post. Ever.

 

Amen.

I love discussing all and any religious topic I have some knowledge on in great detail, but some people on here make it nearly impossible.

Darrel, I think the reason they are called deadly is because they lead to what is known as "mortal sins" in the Catholic tradition, which are sins that not only weaken the link and relationship with god but sever the relationship. I do agree that they can all fall under the term "greed", but not many people when they think of excessive gluttony do they think of greed. Same goes for lust, or sloth, or etc.

EDIT: upon doing research, I found that the final list of the deadly sins were once and for all compiled by Gregory the Great to be in place in contrast to the 7 virtues....Each sin is supposed to have a polar opposite in the virtue list...

 

Yeah, I couldn't actually find a list of the virtues that I really recognised (I didn't look that hard though), but Wikipedia came through as always :

Chastity (Latin, Castitas) (purity, opposes Lust, Latin Luxuria):
Embracing of moral wholesomeness and achieving purity of body and thought through education and betterment.
Temperance (Latin, Temperantia) (self-control, opposes Gluttony, Latin Gula):
Practicing self-control, abstention, and moderation.
Charity (Latin, Liberalitas) (will, generosity, opposes Greed, Latin Avaritia):
Generosity. Willingness to give. A nobility of thought or actions.
Diligence (Latin, Industria) (ethics, opposes Sloth, Latin Acedia):
A zealous and careful nature in one's actions and work. Decisive work ethic. Budgeting one's time; monitoring one's own activities to guard against laziness. Putting forth full concentration in one's work
Kindness (Latin, Humanitas) (peace, opposes Wrath, Latin Ira):
Forbearance and endurance through moderation. Resolving conflicts peacefully, as opposed to resorting to violence. The ability to forgive; to show mercy to sinners.
Patience (Latin, Patientia) (satisfaction, opposes Envy, Latin Invidia):
Charity, compassion, friendship, and sympathy without prejudice and for its own sake.
Humility (Latin, Humilitas) (modesty, opposes Pride, Latin Superbia):
Modest behavior, selflessness, and the giving of respect. Giving credit where credit is due; not unfairly glorifying one's own self.

 

laziness is definatly my biggest hurdle....

 

there is only one sin, evil, negative conduct, whatever you want to call it, all the others are just superficial variations on its appearance, and that is to knowingly cause avoidable suffering, when there is a clear, not coercively prevented in any way, opportunity, to avoid doing so.

there are only two virtues: intending no harm, and not being emotionally attatched, ultimately to anything, because even the most innocent of immotional attatchments, can and do cause suffering and harm.

of course being no saint, i don't loose too much sleep over not being able to live up to all of that infallably, but i do see not screwing everything up for everyone, both else and with else myself as well, as a thoroughly worthwhile objective, in and of itself, whatever else may or may not also happen to exist.

ps: i don't call myself a christian or any other any one thing, and this is another one i'm only replying to because its something i care about in general, had no idea it was in the christianity forum, and absolutely do not beleive christianity, or any other one belief, has any exclusive patent on.

=^^=
.../\...

 

we are all going to end up with God anyways, so I only see sin as a way of slowing us down from our ultimate goal, not something that will commit us to an eternal hellfire.

with that being said, what can be deemed as evil? something that hurts another? but surely, everything you do on a day to day basis hurts someone in some way shape or form?

 

but what is "evil"? I think that is where the words like "greed" et al. come in handy is that it gives people a tangible reference...

 

I dont have to prove it.

I already know it. :H

I'm sorry that you dont though.

 

exactly. :H