The True Meaning of Christmas

I am generalizing because what I said applies to most people who call themselves
Christians.

That is not a quote from me. Those are your words.

You are accusing me of saying many things I didn't say at all.

I am just pointing out that most of the people who claim to be Christians ignore
much of what Jesus taught. They don't follow Jesus, they follow some preacher
or council of preachers, who selects for them the passages from the Bible that
they choose to follow, after they interpret them to suit themselves.

The one thing you will rarely see is a preacher telling his/her congregation
to read the Gospels for themselves and to pray to God or Jesus for guidance
in interpreting what they read accurately.

In fact, that's the LAST thing the preachers, and the congregation who pays
their salaries, want anyone to do. There have been many attempts to have
the Bible taught in public schools over the years. Not one of the 25,000+
officially recognized denominations of Christianity in the world, but just
the Bible.

And who lobbies against this more strenously than anyone else? The people
who call themselves Christian.

The last thing they want is for their kids, and the general public, to read the
Bible and see what's actually there. They want them to read _their_
literature.

Littlefoot

 

Would that be the peace and love exhibited by the American Christians who stole
this contintent, murdering millions of the original inhabitants and destroying their
cultures and drving the survivors onto reservations?

Would that be the peace and love exhibited by the American Christians when they
sent the Marines to invade Nicaragua 19 times on behalf of the United Fruit Company?

Would that be the peace and love exhibited by American Christians when they
killed millions of people in Vietnam and laid waste to the country?

Would that be the peace and love exhibited by American Christians when they
bombed Muslims in Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Indonesia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Afganistan,
Libya and Somalia?

That's a very abbreviated list of the mass murder and destruction done by
American Christians right here on this continent and around the world. It
could go on for pages.

Littlefoot

 

yeah. and Islamist blow shit up everyday and kill ppl in the name of muhammad, but you wont find that in the Koran.

see, you are generalizing, and you now that when you do that, it isn't right. on one hand, you admit that all christians are not the same, but then on the other hand, when war or strive comes up, it is all b/c of the christians. i wonder how many of all those ppl involved in the war actually followed their faith, passed down by their parents...

not everyone in america is a christian, so how can you possibly blame everything america does on christians alone? this kind of attitude really aggravates me. everyone has to blame us for everything, simply b/c we are the majority. kinda like how all the problems the world has are b/c of white ppl.

but just for you information, you might wanna get some new "facts" to blame ppl on. specifically pagans. in 2001, there were 134,000 in the US, and based on the number of them from the previous year (8,000), that is a growth rate of 1575%...

hmm looks like soon everything will be the pagans' fault.


i've read my bible. in the quiet of my room, without the help of "pastor bob" or a group of hypocritical ppl sneering at you just for being at church.

but the real message is that it's about peace and love man. sorry, but your not gonna be able to take that from me.

 

I don't get your point. Are you saying that because other people are violent
that it's okay for Christians to be violent?

The Christians dominate America. Almost all of them have supported everything
the American Military has done throughout our history.

That's a matter of public record.

Again: The Christians dominate America. They are the majority. The majority
rules. That's Democracy.

I am not at all surprised that it aggravates you. Few people like having unpleasant
truths pointed out to them.

I don't think the pagans are any better. They too are wolves in sheep's
clothing. They talk peace and send their taxes to the war machine.
Because it supports their supermaterialistic lifestyles.

The real message of Jesus includes peace and love. You certainly can't say
that about much of the Old Testament or all of the New Testament.

I think it is a wonderful ideal and the Truth. But we aren't there yet. Nor are
we going to get there as long we are a minority, either Christian or Pagan,
that consumes most of the world's resources. Jesus said we shouldn't
worship material wealth, but the pursuit of material wealth is what dominates
the lives and dreams and actions of almost everyone in America.

Don't give up your dream of Peace, brother. But do something real to make
it a reality, too. Like following the advice of another, lesser, messenger from God,
who was really just rephrasing one of Jesus' messages:

"Live simply that others might simply live." --Ghandi

Littlefoot

 

I think the point is that people of all religions are mostly hypocrites whose behavior falls way short of the standards which their prophets set for them. That goes for Buddhists as well as the rest. Warfare, assassinations, and callous indifference to suffering have been characteristic of officially Buddhist regimes, and many practicing Buddhists in Asia, even in monasteries, seem to be motivated by a desire for personal good luck rather than any loftier spiritual ideals. Singling out Christians for criticism distorts that reality, and suggests the unwarrented conclusion "If only there were fewer Christians, the world would be a better place."

But we digress. I agree that Christmas has gotten completely out of control as a commercialized extravaganza. This isn't exactly a result of a Christian conspiracy, and it's no longer a Christian holiday. It's partly a function of the merchants' desire to make a profit. Every year there's lots of anxiety on Wall Street and Main Street about whether or not the consumer will be jolly and spend a lot of money. (If it's a bad Christmas, the stock market will fall, there could be talk of recession, and folks will be out of work). But it's also a reflection of the desire of humans for an excuse to have fun and let loose, especially as an antidote to winter depression. The Puritans tried to ban Christmas, but it came back. I've tried to resist, but keep getting sucked back in by the relentless pressure not to disappoint friends and relatives. And really that--the pressure to give rather than receive--is the driving force behind Christmas in my community. Giving is expected, and anyone resisting is likely to be labelled a Scrooge or Grinch. It's like telling the waitress, "Sorry, but I believe tipping is a bad practice"; it takes away from the intrinsic meaning of good service."

 

My concern is with the country I live in, which is dominated by people who claim
to be Christians. When we clean up our act, I'll worry about other countries.

And then there's the matter of scale and degree. None of those other countries
constantly invade other countries around the globe and attack them with
exceptionally brutal modern weaponry, committing mass murder and destruction.
Or finance and equip as many despotic regimes and factions to act as proxy armies.

And most of those merchants claim to be Christians.

Sure, this twisted economy is fueled by needless consumption. Which has far-
reaching negative effects: On the environment, especially.

Sure. Don't need a materialistic orgy disguised as Christian holiday to do that,
though.

Someone sends me a Christmas present and it gets sent back, unopened. I don't
celebrate Christmas and no one is going to force me to. That goes for most of
my friends, too.

If you have to accept something that someone wants to give you, it isn't a gift,
it is a burden. And the so-called "gift giver" is a creep who is trying to dominate
you.

Been returning Christmas "gifts" from my mother for over 20 years. She still
thinks she's going to force her creepy religion down my throat.

Looks like she'll die entertaining that delusion.

Littlefoot

 

In all fairness, he's talking about an ideal. But he's also another perfect example
of someone who claims to be a Christian (someone who follows the teachings
of Jesus) who ignores much of what Jesus taught.

Peace and love are only a small part of His message. One of the most important,
almost never touched upon in the literature of the various denominations (hardly
a surprise) is:

"The Kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:21

Now the Kingdom of God is obviously Heaven.

So what's all this bullshit about sinning and judgement and hell and having
to die to go to Heaven about if it's within us?

Yes, I am sure there are fast-talking fundamentalists who can go on for
hours about what "Jesus really meant" there, but I can read and I think
He said what He meant.

I choose to believe Jesus over any fatheaded, self-serving psuedo-Christian
who thinks they can speak for Jesus.

Littlefoot

 

Because it is within us doesn't mean we are automatically aware of it. 'Sin' in this context would probably mean activities and engagements which prevent us from realizing what lies within.
Most people are out of touch with their inner self.

 

true meaning of midwinter's eve ain't got a damd thing to do with either christ/christianty, OR capitolist feeding frenzy, but about celibrating peace and survival.

the real christ's birthday was almost certainly NOT in mid winter (because of the very reason give that his parents were where they were when he was born!). and considering as how, before pope gregory put julius and agustus in the middle of the calander, december was the tenth month, as dec-ember implies, which october is now, OCTOBER 25 is MUCH more likely the real day that has anything to do with his birth.

on the other hand, celibrating peace and at least certainly survival through the lean months of the year, go back tens of thousands of years BEFORE christ, and are not uncommon a diversity of cultures both predating and outside of the christothemic sphere.

=^^=
.../\...

 

I do believe you have hit the nail on the head.

We become ego-bound as a species, and the paradigm/religion of the physical
scientists, who tell us that all of our inner/'subjectictive' experiences are illusions,
dominates much of the world.

Littlefoot

 

themnax,

What I can't figure out is why choose the winter, the lean times, for these gatherings of family
and friends? Travel is less pleasant, more dangerous, and more difficult in the winter.

Littlefoot

 

littlefoot please don't bring up iraq. bush is a crazy bastard and i don't even think you could find one person on the street that would support that war, christian or not.



"In all fairness, he's talking about an ideal. But he's also another perfect example
of someone who claims to be a Christian (someone who follows the teachings
of Jesus) who ignores much of what Jesus taught.
Littlefoot"

this is getting way out of hand. you chastised me for pretending to know about you, and now your doing the same thing to me. I don't run around pretending to be a Christian and then in the middle of the night cook up plans to get other people to be like me. I don't ignore what Jesus taught. I interpreted it how I see it, just like you did. So I don't understand this post. Are you saying that your interpretation is correct, while mine is wrong?

I read and i saw love and peace.

And as for Christmas, it is my favorite day of the year. My family is spread out all over the country. It is the only time of the year I get to see my two sisters. We don't have much either little foot, we are right at the poverty line. Everyone gets one little gift, and it's usually an ornament for the tree. It is that one time of year when all the barriers are down, and we can just be completely comfortable with ourselves and with each other. There is no inhibition on love on this day. It makes me cry every year b/c of how beautiful it all is, just being with them. So.....if we buy a few extra biscuits or something this time of year, and that makes us capitalist pigs, then im glad to be one.

 

this post has no logical merit whatsoever. for someone that is so wise, your post sure are shallow. you laugh at me and then provide no information yourself.

so. please. tell us all enlightened one, what IS christianity about? and if all your going to do is bring up conflicts from the past that psuedo-christians waged, then spare me the history lesson. we all know what happened.

 

No one except all the people of the U.S., which has an economy that is completely
dependent on a never-ending supply of cheap oil.

The Congress and the President both approve of that war or it wouldn't be happenning.

Those Congresspersons were elected by the people of America.

They are lobbied by the corporations that provide all of the goods and services,
and all of the jobs, and all of the retirements in America.

There isn't even any resistance from the majority of the families who have soldiers
in the war there.

You are deluded.

That's not true at all. You are obviously talking about an ideal, considering that
"Christians" have been, and are, some of the most violent and murderous people
on the face of the Earth and in all of history.

Me too. And a lot more. Because there's a lot more there. A lot more to
Jesus' message than just love and peace.

I alreadly pointed out one. Do I have to point out a dozen others? Have
you even READ the Gospels?

If your family can travel across the country, they have a lot. Most of the people in
the world couldn't do that much travelling if their lives depended on it.

Good grief. Is that from an episode of Little House on the Prairie?

Littlefoot

 

they save up all year for that one trip asshole.


and no, your the one that has delusions on how the American government works. so your saying that b/c those congressmen "represent" us, and the war is still going on, that we all support it? well who is the congressman from you state? I guess everything he thinks and everything you think are one in the same right? on second thought, if you can assume things about me, then i can assume things about you. you probably don't even vote, so you have no right to complain.

and yeah, it's always the chrisitans who are the monsters. please find me one group of people who didn't commit attrocities.

thanks for making fun of my families christmas, but i really don't even care what you think about it. im sorry that your so full of hate for moments of love and joy like we experience ever year on december 25th. b/c no good can come of anything derived from christianity, right?

 

Namaste, I offer my respects and obeisances to the Divine essence in all beings, the Divine Self of all reality. We, as manifestations of that same Self, must remember that behind the appearances of difference and strife there is this One reality of Divine Consciousness. With that said, no matter what the situation, no matter the issue or circumstance, we must at least remember the virtue of compassion for all beings, no matter how small and insignificant or undeserving that entity might seem to be.
Om Namah Sivaya.

 

Yet we make constant war for the sake of material things, killing and maiming other
human beings in the process and destroying their homes and livelihoods.

And we trash the homes of our fellow creatures, driving many species extinct.
This too being for material things.

YOU are part of this economy too. Those wonderful words don't change a thing.
You are as much a part of the war-making and Earth-raping machine as anyone else.

Littlefoot

 

You are not God, You cannot control the entire nation. Who gets to be the president is dictated by the sequences of events that happen to place someone in power.

What can you do to help? Well, why not start doing something good for your neighbor, say some good words to people you meet on the street. Be friendly and help out your friends and family. Think good thoughts, act kindly in your regular life.

If you have to buy the milk from the same company that butchers the cow, then when buying the milk pray to God that this milk is going to be offered to Him, therefore he should provide the cow's soul a place in heaven. You cannot change someone's judgement, but you can change the judgement that is going to be placed on you. Be good, treat everyone with love and respect they deserve, and live a simple honest life.
To live a simple life while showing love to others, doing good things is enough. As long as you do what you are supposed to do as a service to God while following a peaceful happy life of surrender to God, it is enough.

 

I second that thought. "Holier than thou" attitudes aren't going to solve the world's problems, or do a thing to change the power structure.

 

I agree, man. We had a good Christmas, too, not because of the presents but because of the love. Anyone who thinks that's wrong or not good enough is sick.