They ARE concentration camps

Not the people, the consequences of a thousand-mile trek.

 

Maybe they didn't walk the whole way. Maybe most of the way they were hitching rides. And then they...washed their clothes. And maybe they didn't buy $1 detergent. Even though, yes, tide is $1 detergent at the laundromat, and it works. I'm not sure there's much of a mystery here. '

You seem to be suggesting that their clothes couldn't possibly be as clean as they are after their journey. So therefore, they must not have made the journey. So what is it you think is happening?

 

Right now I'm thinking that, because I'm bringing up the issue of the unlikelihood that thousands of immigrants stopped at the laundromat before photos were taken, others are using that as a reason to dismiss any argument about the reality of illegal immigration. So far their plan is to nullify the law and have taxpayers pick up the tab?

When Obama was kingpin, illegal immigrants were treated badly at the boarder. That Administration admitted that the conditions at the detention centers were for the purpose of acting as a deterrent. But there wasn't the stink being made of it like now. It would appear that the media has a lot to do with when people jump on an issue. Pavlov's dog comes to mind.

 

Nullifying the law and having taxpayers pick up the tab? That's unheard of in the United States of America.

 

I like your sense of humor. It gives me hope.

 

That's because conditions are worse now, and because Trump has been making the stink, for the benefit of his base, and calling it an "emergency" .Two wrongs definitely don't make a right.
Family separation was new, but Trump’s new border policy is an Obama throwback
Fact check: Trump’s immigration policy vs. Obama's
The Obama program detained minors suspected of smuggling
Both international law and U.S. law have standards for minimum humane treatment of prisoners, human rights and protection against "cruel and unusual punishment." Those standards are being violated in the refugee detention facilities.
US Immigrant Detentions, Accusations of Rights Violations Rise
UN human rights commissioner ‘appalled’ by conditions in US detention centers
http://hrbrief.org/hearings/immigra...es-violations-international-human-rights-law/
Physicians for Human Rights - Immigrant Detention Violating Medical Care Standards and Humane Living Conditions
Immigration Detention Centers Put Rule of Law to Shame
https://www.usccr.gov/press/2015/PR_ReportReleasedCCR_9-17-15.pdf
https://americasvoice.org/press_rel...spector-general-reports-and-direct-testimony/
It isn't okay to use cruel and unusual punishment and human rights violations as deterrents. Children are involved. Have we no decency?

 

They most likely got free shoes from shelters or Catholic Charities. I know many people who got free "Donated" shoes at Homeless shelters. From the example you have provided us, I see the migrants at riders on a truck, not trekkers as you've claimed. I don't think you know much about migrants, refugees, or poverty.

 

All this immigrants have good hygiene talk is changing my mind. Smelling good is goddamned un-American.

 

Well there is photographic proof that you are misstating the facts. In fact, in 2015, the American Immigration Council and the American Civil Liberties Union announced a class action lawsuit against the conditions at detainment facilities.

“The complaint alleges that Tucson Sector Border Patrol holds men, women, and children in freezing, overcrowded, and filthy cells for days at a time in violation of the U.S. Constitution and CBP’s own policies. Detained individuals are stripped of outer layers of clothing and forced to suffer in brutally cold temperatures; deprived of beds, bedding, and sleep; denied adequate food, water, medicine and medical care, and basic sanitation and hygiene items such as soap, sufficient toilet paper, sanitary napkins, diapers, and showers; and held virtually incommunicado in these conditions for days."
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________






I don't recall a stink being made about that. Do you? I still think that Pavlov's dog is highly instructive in this case.

 

I really dont get the argument that because conditions were bad during the Obama administration that we shouldn't do anything about it now

No, the media didnt highlight this issue as much back then, yes it is a shame that the media doesnt always play their role as the government watch dog

But the bottom line is we do know more about the conditions now plus there are 20,000 more detainees now, including children, and we should attempt to fix the problem.

 

As I recall, the "stink"came about in 2018 as a result of three factors: (1) the much ballyhooed decision of (then) Atty General Jeff Sessions to impose the big "zero tolerance" crackdown and systematic parent-child separation; (2) the great increase of waves of migrant refugees from the Northern Triangle of Central America to unprecedented levels; and (3) Trump's declaration that this was a national emergency entitling him to override Congress's decisions on spending of appropriated resources. Things like that draw media attention. Your argument seems to be that conditions in the facilities are fine because Obama did something similar (on a significantly smaller scale). Non sequitor.

 

The difference between the trump, and Obama policies? trump dehumanizes the migrants.
don't want immigrants here? tell american businesses not to hire them.

 

I saw this (seemingly astute) argument made several times in this thread. Has it been adressed or countered by those who mainly blame those immigrants and lefties for coming to the US? I don't recall (if i happen to missed it maybe someone who DOES recall could quote it? Thanks in advance! )

 

No...

 

What I'm saying is that your response to this wave of illegal immigrants is directly proportional to the media coverage. Obama's policy was simple - make detention center conditions deplorable so as to be a deterrent to illegal immigrants. And you want to draw a distinction between Obama and Trump based on the number of illegal immigrants who suffered these conditions.

 

We knew about the conditions in 2015. That's when the photos I've posted were taken. What more is there to know that your eyes didn't tell you?

 

Thanks. You're the only one that attempted to address my question.

 

Although good to be aware of, isn't that simply a natural occurence. Not a sure indication of hypocritical criticism as most who point this out seem to imply.

Here's how it seems to me: the distinction is not only based on the number of illegal immigrants or the exact policies, but also how the presidents communicate their views on these people.

 

What I'm saying is that we should respond to human rights violations that we know about, we mostly know about them through the media, and the media are focusing on them because of the factors mentioned in post #311. "We" didn't know about the conditions in 2015, because those photos from plaintiffs briefs weren't general knowledge. "Obama did it too" and "media hype" are non sequitors, if the violations are real. And numbers do matter.

It would be naive to think these caravans are entirely spontaneous on the part of desperate people. They appear to be aided by Pueblo Sin Fronteras and other open border activist groups for the purposes exposing conditions in Central America and pressuring the U.S. on border policy. That's beside the point, which is that conditions in the detention facilities are deplorable. Most of the people in the caravans will probably be unsuccessful in their efforts to gain permanent entry to the U.S., because most may be unqualified under current laws. Yet if we take them into custody, we need to treat them humanely.

BTW where did you get those photos of male legs allegedly belonging to Central American refugees? I count seven pairs altogether, out of thousands. Could you provide a more representative (random) sample, along with some authentication? Back in early 2018 when this became topical, Trump defenders were trying to persuade us, through the wonders of selective photography, that the refugees were mostly able bodied males, which was not true. There are agencies like Border Kindness and other charities which specialize in providing clothes for migrants. Most do not walk to the U.S. border. They ride in trucks, buses and the tops of cargo trains. And even if true that the refugees are clean and well-dressed, does that mean they'd be fair game for inhumane treatment? Children, too? All you've given us so far are insinuations and non sequitors.

 

No, because in a capitalist society, one doesn't dare criticize the capitalists. Well at least not the politicians who work for the capitalists!