Thought is independent of time

What about unconscious and subconscious thoughts,if indeed you accept that these exist? How do these relate to time?

 

That is actually a good question---I am assuming that by unconscious you are simply referring to the older label of subconscious (as opposed to an idea of thoughts one might have while rendered unconscious).

When we think, especially in the modern world, we are thinking in conscious terms, using the thought process of the conscious mind, which is already defined by the ego, and therefore a product of time regardless of how you feel about the issue of time and consciousness.

But the subconscious does not work in the linear fashion of the conscious mind. Dreams are a good example of this. they do not always follow a logical time sequence. However consciously we still experience the non-linear sequence in our own time. Once we have had the dream, it is a past event.

But what about deeper subconscious processes--such as dealing with archetypes. Archetypical motifs communicate to us at an intuitional level---they are after all, a part of the irrational nature of the subconscious. We get feelings and emotions, and other intangible personality traits from the archetypes. There is no linear thinking involved, no figuring it out, just an instant stimulus from the subconscious.

Shadow elements are another example. Let someone suggest that you are such and such, and that happens to be repressed within your shadow, or atleast something you associate it with, and Wham!! You lash out in defense, "I'M NOT LIKE THAT! YOU SON OF A...!"

No time to think, no time to rationalize, or even to understand why you are angry---when someone causes you to face your own shadow, or accuses you of being something that you have repressed into your shadow---you lash out instantly.

Of course this is not proof that it involves a dynamic outside of time. But it is something to think about. It is much like the experience of instant understanding that Tastyweat and I referred to. This all happens within the subconscious----it is our door way to the numinous, the sacred.

 

I'd say they are bound to time as well. For instance, someone who has a flashback from PTSD had to at one point in time have the traumatic event occur to which they are flashing back. Even beyond PTSD, People frequently seem to develop subconscious coping habits in response to various issues.

For unconscious thought, like say swaying your arms or walking it takes awhile for a human to develop these skills to make them unconscious thoughts . The brain of a baby is not fully developed and as it's neuronal connections between cerebellum, parietal lobe and other areas imparitive to motor control are becoming increasingly efficient it has to go through the process of trial and error many, many times before something as simple as walking becomes second nature.

 

Wolf:

You mean both.

One and the other. The appearance of one or the other is still owing nonetheless to our measuring for one or the other? No? Wave particle duality. I mean, it passes through the slits no matter what doesn't it?

I'm trying to make sense of that, and failing! lol

It makes sense that we should ask them when.

Thanks, though I'm not sure what materialist conclusions you think I'm drawing! :-D

Yes, consciousness is a fact of life. But it has to come to be a fact, or rather, what it is, like anything else. It is obvious that it is emergent. As for the idea of a disembodied consciousness, I'm sure any conclusions you might want to draw are immaterial. ;-D

Tasty:

e = mc² ?

Are photons really massless just because we've never weighed one?

 

Yes

Where c can be expressed in m/s km/s miles/s... doesn't matter just affects how the units should be interpreted.

As you square that term, the units become:
m²/s²

or m²s-²


If we go through a simple manipulation of the formula... we can focus specifically on its relation to 1/s², we can see that as energy tends toward infinity - time tends closer to 0.

The higher the energy state, the faster time progresses with respect to things of a lower energy state. So... something of higher energy or say travelling faster would 'age' less than something of lower energy or travelling slower.

Conversely, as energy depletes or something moves slower... time stretches out for the thing that is losing energy. If we could ever reach a state of 0 energy - then time would be irrelevant.



Would be kinda cool if this depletion of energy and its relation to time could explain an elongation of time as we move closer to death.

Of course the particles themselves don't suddenly lose all their energy... but with respect to consciousness and the energy level required for consciousness, that energy fades to a point where it ceases to be available to our physical bodies anymore.

Perhaps, even if there were no higher self, as we tend closer to death - our time stretches out to a point where we continue to experience our own personal infinity :sunny:

I'm not specifically referring to photons, but their extremely low mass state compared to their relatively high energy state shows how they experience a highly dilated form of time.

If they were free from mass, then it could be suggested that their basic energy state is 0.

Suggesting they may be able to exist without energy, timeless.

What happens to a photon when it interacts with a particle? Could it attach itself in a dormant form after it has imparted its energy? Or is it completely absorbed and effectively disappears, or at least converts itself wholly to energy.

Perhaps they're not particles at all... they are simply an exchange of energy that can be observed by us as both a particle and a wave. Leaving it irrelevant to think of them as a particle.

Perhaps the effect of a densely gravitational object, like a black hole, on a photon - is more related to it sub-absolute-zero pull on the energy state, rather than a gravitational pull. A dense portion of dark energy bending its path.

 

So much misinformation...

A linear beam of energy such as light photon has no mass but is said to have a very tiny mass potential. Time is certainly a function of their existence. It takes ~8 minutes for a pulse of light to travel from the sun to the earth. This is the speed of light, it is a measure of time. Energy can not exist without time. Without time there can be no movement.

Massless energy is a propagating electro-magnetic pulse of spatial displacement. Electro-magnetic fields only ever exist when energy is MOVING through that field in a perpendicular direction. Just like electrons MOVING through a wire induces magnetism. There is nothing without movement and time is simply the progress of movement. In fact all magnetism and matter require movement. Any magnetic substance is magnetic because more electron orbits are lined up west-east than any other direction resulting in a north-south magnetic field external to that substance. The strength depends on the ratio of how many electrons are lined up in MOVING orbital alignments.

The key again is movement, electrons are moving at light speed - a measure of TIME. Matter can not exist without this shell of moving/orbiting electrons around all atoms. It is the electro-magnetic field of the electrons and their repulsion to other atoms electrons that keeps atoms from collapsing in to each other. Mass is quite literally the magnetic field space between moving/orbiting particles. When real scientific theory and formulas refer to superposition within atoms/quantum states, they simply mean they must account for all possible positions because we don't have the technology to actually know a particles position that is orbiting at light speed inside an atom until we break that particle from the atom and track where it collided with a sensor. Superposition never really meant that everything is everywhere and time is frozen, this is gross misrepresentation of scientific theory. Religious and spiritualists are always looking to warp and masturbate science into absurdity to support their faiths and biases.

 

You forget to point out any mis-information and completely miss the point of the comment.

Electrons do not move at light speed. To accelerate them to that speed given the current model would require infinite energy and would take them to infinite mass, effectively destroying the universe in the process, or at the very least forming a black hole before it could get there. I would expect a primordial blackhole of a tiny relative existence.

We can, however... get them very close to the speed of light with a few giga electronvolts.

Why you choose to talk about the time it takes for a photon to travel from the sun to the earth is beyond me... I was clearly talking about time from the perspective of the photon or similar particle.

While we observe the photon taking 8 minutes to reach us, the photon experiences it as an instant... effectively popping into existence and popping out again - perhaps instantaneously - perhaps experiencing a very very low period of existence.



Electrons could potentially travel faster than the speed of light, from our observation point, by possessing a more direct interaction with the fourth dimension - seemingly popping out of third dimension and appearing at another point. String theory allows for this behaviour.

 

Zero point energy could be an explosion/manifestation of consciousness.

 

point out misinformation?
you are bloody hemorrhaging misinformation with every sentence you post!

 

I think you're in the wrong place if you want a raw scientific debate.

 

Well I suppose you're right about that.

 

Yes Relaxxx, which brings us to the question of what are you looking for? Why do you keep peering over that Cartesian Wall? Then climbing over it from the side of science, and wandering around this side? What repressed need or unrealized question are you trying to resolve? ...Tell me about your relationship with your father?

In the Bible, which is much older than science and therefore far more truthful, it is written... (I'm Joking! I'm Joking!)

Seriously though, where would we be if Newton had not grabbed science and masturbated it. Where would we be if Einstein hadn't grabbed it with both hands... One of the biggest problems with science is that it is just as reductionist and dogmatic as an evangelistic fundamentalist. The difference between them is that science bills itself as being based on theory. But theory is something that can be disproved through the results of testing that theory. Dogma cannot be disproved because it is blind to anything contrary to its belief system.

I have yet to see what misinformation you are referring to. Suppositions, questions, mind experiments are not misinformation, they are explorations into possibility. As far as the actual science posted here, including in your own posts, I see nothing that has been altered or masturbated into misinformation. These things are all reflected in the writings and teachings of well-known quantum physicists, and other scientists, and discussed in the Scientific media, by ‘official experts.’

The problem is science does not have all the answers. And science alone proves quite dangerous when it comes to interacting with, manipulating, managing, and controlling human beings and their society and culture. Coming into the Modern Age, man thought science was the answer. He used objectivistic measures, and theory, to rationalize such great scientific achievements of social control as the Marxist Dialectic. And of course, what better way to improve the efficiency and state of the human condition, than to remove imperfections through eugenics (and while we are at it, we might as well just remove everything except the most rational of races---those of blonde-haired, blue-eyed, Germanic stock). Those are extreme cases (unfortunately, they are facts of our history), but open up a National Geographic from the late 40's or the 1950's, and you'll get a sense of that amazing wonderful world science will bring of giant irradiated fruit, supersonic travel, and all our problems solved (and with Atomic power no less), as American freedom and democracy reign across the world.

But where are we today? Is this the utopic world of scientific achievement we were promised? One answer to that question lies in popular culture. Both Artists, and the things that make art popular to a culture, reflect an awful lot of what is happening at the irrational (i.e. non-scientific) levels of society. I don't think it is a mistake, or a marketing gimmick that modern culture today is so obsessed with zombies--mindless dead masses, whose only reason for animation is to feed on brains--the source of reason, meaning, feeling, and life. The same is true with vampires--that nihilistic creature that never dies, yet only lives to feed on the blood of the living. Both are uncontrollably driven to consume. Clearly these are symbolic expressions of the collective subconscious reacting to aspects of modern life.

If science were to answer the deep down questions of our existence, those questions that deal with the potential nothingness that underlies our being, then threads like this would be meaningless. But science can never answer these questions, until it gives true meaning to our being. Otherwise they will not be resolved. Science can’t even provide a clear idea on whether such answers are Godly or Godless.

Ultimately, such answers, if we ever do find them, would have to break down the Cartesian wall---resolve the mind/body dichotomy---and it may very well be that as long as that wall stands, we will never even find a grand unified theory.

Today, science is finding answers at an unprecedented rate of speed, yet the mysteries grow and continue. Clearly the dogma of keeping science leashed to the empirical rational world of Kantian-era philosophy is not solving anything in terms of the real problem to the human condition----hence we have found ourselves in a growing Post-Modern crisis. (Even this site you are on---is a hippy site---for hippies-----the first Post-Modern culture-wide response to the Modern World and its unifying myth of science---as it manifested in the 1950's and into the 60's).

I am very good friends with the Black Elk family, descendants of the famous Lakota Medicine Man, Black Elk. His son, Wallace Black Elk was another well know Medicine Man. He was good friends with a lot of world figures, such as the Dalai Lama, and so forth. He healed one of the Rockefeller sons from an illness doctors said there was no cure for. He also knew and was friends with Albert Einstein. The family has pictures of Wallace and Albert, and letters and other things (---they do not even know all the stuff---much of his life is still in boxes and scattered amongst his children. They are trynig to put it all together now). Albert Einstein called Wallace Black Elk (and I am paraphrasing---I don't remember the exact words off hand), 'Wallace is the only one I would consider to be my true teacher.'

Talk about masturbating science---I have sat up all night numerous times talking with Kari Hollow Horn, the grandson of Wallace, who himself is having the visions, and experiences along the lines of his grandfather, and great grandfather. He has a High School education, he doesn't speak in terms of quanta, or the Heisenberg Principal, he cannot do any sort of math that one would apply to quantum mechanics, he doesn't speak of any wave/particle paradox, or about the intimacies of space/time. He speaks in the language of an irrational reality--yet together we translate that, and he has a very deep understanding of quantum physics. A lot of it comes from his Grandfather. None of it comes from textbooks. The complexity is amazing. He doesn’t pretend to have any answers---but it is amazing to get a glimpse of the physical universe from his understanding. But he’s obviously not masturbating science either.

Besides----it is an exciting world of wonder, enchantment and exploration once you breaks the chains of dogma. (It’s like I told my brother when I gave him a copy of the book, Parallel Universes, by Fred Alan Wolf---‘its like a drug trip without the drugs.’)

 

Relaxxx:

No rest mass, but what is at rest? About there being no movement without time, I wouldn't know, but there can be no consciousness without it, consciousness always being a consciousness-of. I think this is why we're being called materialists relaxxx. lol

Tasty:

We continue to experience that anyway, don't we? Time as something that passes only with our interest is what interests me. Eternity as all time, as opposed to its absence. :-D

 

Except that as a particle it can only pass through one of the slits at a time, which is why it should be determined already in the past which one it is. This of course only becomes noticeable when it is slowed down to individual particle/waves.

LOL--good one.

My mistake then---I guess I assumed that if you are basing consciousness as emergent from matter, as opposed to essentialism, that you took it to its obvious conclusion of a materialist universe. Though that maybe the obvious conclusion, it is not necessarily the only one.

...and the immaterial is so fascinating!

 

Good point--it seems there can be no other way than to be conscious of, which it seems would require a linear progression of time.

I wonder----falling into a black hole---would we never experience our death? just slowing of time to an eventual moment of eternity (as space time stretches towards infinity), while the observer on the outside would witness this death----but then wouldn't a moment of eternity be the equivalent of no time-----we would conscious of an eternal single moment...

 

Watched "the quantum activist"... Nice to see someone coming to similar ideas.

 

http://www.thebigview.com/mind/nonlocal.html

 

The act of reading this thread itself has the strange effect of divorcing the experience of time and thought I am finding...

 

Good... we're learning :sunny:

 

time is just a description of space . so you might as well address
space thought . the space of our existence has two dimensions .
one is physically elemental , the other is elemental light . there's
life forms natural to each , and all of life speaks together .

time is not a dimension .