Tobacco Industry

I wish I could rep you for this, Madcap.

 

How can you say that? Ever live in a small town where job opportunities are very limited? Even if you live in a big city, if your skill set limits you to, say, working in a bar or restaurant, does that mean you have to inhale other people's smoke? Second hand smoke is a proven health hazard.

Alcohol has its problems. Tobacco has its problems. Does the first statement being true mean the second statement is false?

 

I'm not quite sure why one would start smoking while knowing the risks involved. They understand what they are in for and that it will not benefit them in any way, and yet...

 

The point is you can't chastise people for doing one thing and not the other. If you live in West Virgina and your skill levels set you to working in a coal mine, does this mean you shouldn't have the possibility of breathing in coal dust. Workers are not forced to work somewhere, if someone wants to make a bar to appeal to smoking customers they should have the right. Seriously if you don't want to breathe in second hand smoke, don't work at a bar if it's really that big a deal to you.

 

But bar owners never choose to make a bar appealing to nonsmokers. Do you think the rights of smokers are more important/valuable/worthy than the rights of nonsmokers in a bar? If so, why?

 

This is the classical argument of employers who want to maximize profit by paying as little as possible in wages and spending as little as possible in employee safety and environmental safety measures. The fact is, if government or a union doesn't step in to defend them, workers do have little choice but to take what is offered, the alternative being homelessness or welfare in many cases.

 

Because smoking and drinking tend to go together. They're more valuable simply because it should be up to the owner, plain and simple. What about the rights of the non drinkers on the road, should the bartender force a person at gun point to stay inside the bar until they blow under .08. Seriously people who go to bars and complain about second hand smoke is like going to a casino and complaining about people drinking. Get over yourselves.

You really can't compare second hand smoke in bars to what wages the employees pay. This isn't radioactivity. Really people who don't smoke just want a feel good cause to gather around. If you go eat mcdonalds once today, it will be worse for your health then spending a month surrounded by second hand smoke. Jesus the fact these people work in an environment where drunk people are drinking, and have a good chance to spill their drinks, the health hazards of slipping and breaking bones should be a much greater concern, especially since we can assume most people who work at bars don't have health insurance.

As it is basically all bars have wood floors, specifically for clean up purposes. Maybe we should order them to have carpets instead, much safer.

 

That's similar to the argument that restaurant owners used to make in big tobacco states. As far as most of them were concerned, nonsmokers could stay at home and cook their own meals. Fuck the owners.

The owner is liable, under existing laws. Two years ago, a popular local bar here had to go out of business because they failed to cut off a customer before he got too drunk to drive, and there was no designated driver or taxi. They lost a lawsuit and had to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars because they did not handle their responsibility properly. That is a part of being a bar owner.

 

None of that changes the fact that it's up to the owner. If you own a business, you have the right to decide what goes on there -- it's that simple. If someone else isn't comfortable with it, they don't have to spend their time there. That's just all there is to it.

 

Exactly, part of being a bar owner is also you operate an establishment by definition is bad for people's health. If you want to allow smoking that should be up to you. Restaurants aren't the same, even most smokers don't like to smoke while they're eating, and almost no one smokes occasionally because of eating. Most smokers do drink though, and like to smoke while drinking, and tons of people will smoke occasionally when drinking.

 

I don't know about Canada, but the trends in the US are moving strongly in the opposite direction. Nonsmokers are winning every battle. Here, operating a business that is open to the public is considered to be a privilege, not a right. The public has benefited greatly from this approach. You think restaurant and bar owners really care about sanitation grades, fire extinguishers, and fire exits? Most only care because they have to.

 

That's all there is to it, except for a little three letter word you might not have come across. Law.

I'm not comparing second hand smoke to wages. I'm saying, in Alberta Canada, second hand smoke in public premises is illegal in the interests of employees and customers.
Yeah, I want a feel good cause. Now let me tell you something, and I'll say it nice and slowly so that even you can understand it. I have to breathe. I demand clean air. That is a non-negotiable demand.
One more thing, speaking as a non-smoker. There's been a fight between us and the smokers. We won. You lost.

 

You didn't win, you screwed over nearly 1/3 of the population who pays nearly $40 billion in taxes that everyone uses, and business owners on how to ruin their business as they see fit. It's not your air, it's their air, they own the premises. If you want to breathe clean air go to a bowling alley, not a bar. And it does ruin business, there's only 1 bar(normal bar, not the 2 hookah bars) in New Haven where it's still legal to smoke due to the fact they sell a lot of tobacco too. No one use to go to that place, it was beyond neutral. Now since word got out you're still legally allowed to smoke in there it's freakin packed every night.

It's all good though, they've done what they can with smokers, sugar is next on the list, both federally and especially in NYC the trend of putting taxes on sugar based products such as soft drinks and candy in the name of public health is increasingly becoming popular. In NYC too restaurants as a whole are coming under attack to be taxed for using certain kinds of fat in their food, and making others straight up illegal. Nobody wins, the only thing is smokers were right, even 10 years ago I remember people saying you can only tax and punish smokers so much before you can't anymore and must move on. All non smokers were always like no, everyone who doesn't smoke hates smoking, so it works out.

Well guess what, we were right, they can't do anything else to smokers, so now they've moved onto something everyone loves, food. The nanny state strikes again.

 

That is not a rational point.

 

I'm screwing people over because I demand clean air? Well, pardon me for breathing. And if 'nearly 1/3 of the population' don't like my right to clean air, that leaves more than two thirds that do like it. In some regions, restaurants have 'smoking areas' where smokers can pollute themselves to their hearts content. In Alberta this is no longer the case, so far as I know, because business owners don't want to spend to support smoke pollution.

Now the bad news. It's not just that we won and you lost. It's also the case that we're right and you're wrong. You know what emphysema is? No? Just keep smoking, friend. You'll find out.

 

Yeah smoking is for people with no self respect.

 

The trend is moving that way in Canada too -- more so, in fact. Doesn't mean it's right.

You have no right to clean air on someone else's property. Should people not be allowed to smoke in their own homes because you might come over and not like it? No, because no one's forcing you to go to their houses. Just because a business is 'public' doesn't mean it has to cater to the needs of everyone who might want to come in. Some level of compromise is assumed: you're entering someone else's establishment, so you play by their rules. I'm not a big fan of the loud music they play in a lot of bars (not including live music, unless the band sucks), but I don't expect them to turn the sound down for me. If I don't like the volume of the music, I can deal with it or I can leave. It's the same thing. If you think second-hand smoke is a big health risk (which, unless you live with smokers all the time, it isn't) then stay away from it.

 

So people who do drugs have no self respect? So is eating fast food for people with no self respect? Last I checked obesity is by far the #1 drain of money on our health services.

And no, it's not your air, you don't own the premises, it's not public space, you're not the one trying to ruin a business, it is their air. It's private air, if you don't like it, don't go inside.

 

Drugs have no negative effects as long as theres moderation, and depending on the drug. The point is, tobacco isn't even that great of a high, and they are trading that high for their health. It is one of the most dangerous drugs besides meth because of all the toxic shit in it, either you are too stupid to understand or you don't have self respect. Even in moderation, it is horrible period. I don't know how true it is but i saw studies saying that smoking your first cigarette can harden your arteries by 50%. Multiplying risk of heart attack or stoke by two.
And yes, eating fast food is a good form of self disrespect. If you really had self respect you would focus on foods that are known to have alot of nutrients/benefits. Yes, I eat fast food rarely, just like I do cocaine rarely. Because the effect it has on my body is so insignificant that it is worth doing. Cocaine is one of the best feelings, just like mcdonalds french fries are the most delicious french fries. The key is I do these harmful activities very RARELY, AND I stay aware of how bad it is.
You can do the same with cigarettes, smoke them rarely and you might be ok, but it just seems so retarded and pointless to me it really boggles my mind. I have smoked 40-50 cigs and i regret it I probably would have been twice as healthy right now. I only had great experiences with the cigs about 5 -10 times I felt really euphoric, but even then as good as I was feeling I was like "what, so I feel good when I put REAL poison in me?" And always would think logically which MOST PEOPLE LACK.
TBH, I do still like occasional mullers with my bong, I use NATURAL DRIED TOBACCO LEAVES on some chronic, and yes the high is priceless, better feeling than any cigarette I have ever smoked, not only is the high better, I subconciously feel truly better because I know I am just doing ONE chemical (nicotine) and not rat poison gunpowder and radioactive substances.

 

All drug users trade health for highs. Some people happen to like cigarettes. Some people happen to like McDonalds, it's not a form of self disrespect, some people prefer to get to the grave having lived, not trying to prolong life as long as humanly possible.

And the natural dried tobacco is shit, ALL tobacco is bad for you, tobacco smoke itself is what causes health problems and nicotine is what is the main carcinogen. There's nothing better about "natural" tobacco then there is about others. Frankly pouch tobacco and American spirits all taste like crap, I don't care what's in my camels, I like how they taste.

No one plans on becoming addicted to cigarettes, just like no one plans on becoming an alcoholic, or a coke head, or someone who eats fast food 9 times a week.

And smoking 1 cigarette will not hardern your arteries at all, you'd inhale as much smoke being in a room with candles lit for an hour. Do you understand the amount of cigarettes a person must smoke to get cancer and such? Most people start at 14-15 and are at a pack a day by 18, that goes on for 30 years. Studies have shown smokers who quit before 30 generally have almost the same health as someone who never smoked as the body is still young enough to repair itself.