Truth And Justice

You see, if we consider faith as "belief" or "act of believing", and if we consider objectivity as something that which everyone can know about and that which is not a private matter , then we find that faith is objective.

For instance, for a christian who believes that God exists, he has faith in God.
Similarly , a buddhist who believes in teachings of buddha also has a similar feeling or faith about buddha's teachings.

A scientist too, working further on the basis of authenticity of previous experiments also has similar feeling of faith.

We can further extend this and say that to do anything, faith is needed. Even confidence can be termed as "having faith in oneself". Hence, faith can be objective...something that which everyone can know and talk about and even judge sometimes based on a set objective criterion.

 

There is no proof because it is a completely different mode of thinking about things.
For instance , a scientist will study a flower by disecting it, understanding the processes that go on to give certain characteristics to a given flower.
However, a poet on the other hand may study the same flower by just admiring its beauty and trying to relate that to something else.
For a religious individual , the same beautiful flower is the act of God.

All three modes of thinking are different perspectives about the same flower and to understand each perspective you will have to think through that perspective.
For instance, for a layman to understand the scientist , he needs to dissect the flower as a scientist.
For a layman to understand the poet, he has to feel what the poet feels about the flower.
Similarly, for the layman to find out the proof about God, or to see God, he needs to think through in the terms of the religious individuals.

 

[font=&quot]No, you're looking at a set of wheels and calling it a car! Faith is not just the "act of believing". I believe the earth is the third planet from the sun. I do not need to have faith that it is the third planet because it is unchallenged, logical, factual and commonly accepted knowledge! Faith is the act of maintaining an unsubstantiated belief under opposition from contradictory and differing circumstances, opinions, logic and evidence. Faith is not so much the belief in one idea as the REJECTION of many ideas. FAITH IS NOT OBJECTIVE!![/font]

[font=&quot]Irrelevant, multiple and different occurrences of faith is not one objective faith! [/font]

[font=&quot]No, science uses facts, logic and repetitive demonstration to prove knowledge, not faith.[/font]

No, again more irrelevance! lets not further extend nonsense, doubletalk and mutilated definitions to support more nonsense, doubletalk and mutilated definitions!

 

What is that proof? Because a tree sways there is wind? You can see the PROOF of God according to Christians, it's everything. That tree, its leaves, the inch worm on its branches, the squirrel that lives there. How do you KNOW God did not create those things? It's a simple matter of oppinion.

I ask myself the same question.

You put your FAITH in science. Without faith in the basic principles of science (E=MC squared, laws of gravity, etc.) nothing could be discovered scientifically.

 

Relaxxx: "I believe the earth is the third planet from the sun. I do not need to have faith that it is the third planet because it is unchallenged, logical, factual and commonly accepted knowledge! "

Right , and I assume you believe that on the basis of what your teachers and scientists have told you. There are differing ideas such as earth is the center of the universe etc but these are rejected by your willful acceptance of the idea that earth is the third planet from the sun. If all the books tell you from the beginning that earth is the center of the universe, would you question this?

Relaxxx "Faith is the act of maintaining an unsubstantiated belief under opposition from contradictory and differing circumstances, opinions, logic and evidence."

If you look closely, all the evidence supporting one idea in a scientific study is based on controlled factors. Without the controlled factors, there may not be any supporting evidence. This limits science and does not give 100% accuracy in the real world where there are infinite factors. therefore, the belief that science is correct in a given situation is based on the idea that it is correct even when there is contrary evidence that does not support science's supporting evidence in the real world.

For instance, sleeping pills that are meant to give a good nights sleep and improve health and well being of an individual may have adverse effects on one's liver and in doing so , ruin his health further.

Relaxxx: "No, science uses facts, logic and repetitive demonstration to prove knowledge, not faith."
Maybe ,You need to first ask yourself what a fact is, and why one believes that repetitive demonstration of anything can give predictable results.

 

"faith is the act of maintaining...Irrelevant, multiple and different occurrences of faith is not one objective faith! "

Also, by your definition, faith is an act. An act can be performed in multiple scenarios. The trick here is seeing a pattern.

 

If A GOD could exist, why couldn't it be the Christian God?

 

Relax :baby: , I will explain it to you. Your contention with me ,was that righteousness was not objective. I disagree with this. I did not use righteousness in the christian context but in the universal secular context.
So also with the term truth.

Why not , even atheists can be dogmatic in their views.

I again repeat, u said that religion is anti-truth, and this is why I tried to rectify your error by quoting Krishna, buddha and Thomas Paine.

Blah, blah, blah, blah.....

 

LOL, now that's the smartest thing you've said yet and the only thing worth responding to from either you, Jedi or Toker. Pretty much sums up the total intellectual insight from the three of you right there, nice job.

 

yes there is, it is the bible.

 

haha yes, no matter how much we speak or think, the truth is accounted for one way or the other.

 

That is your assumption.

 

Ok, I'm just hopping in here, so here are my thoughts to some of the posts on this page.

-Faith, in a religious sense, is a belief that is not substantiated by logic, reason, science, or evidence in general, and is different than faith in any other sense. Faith also means trust or confidence in something. Science doesn't require faith because it is objective. If you dissect a flower and I dissect one of the same species, we'll see the same thing. The sun rises every day for everyone. A ball dropped by you or by me at any given point will fall at the same rate, percieved by any observer. Not so for religion. You can't test religion, it isn't falsifiable, you can't do experiments on the nature of religion. And pretty much everyone has a different version or interpretation of it. In any other case, this would lead you to believe that the particular phenomenon in question is only in people's minds. Just a thought, an idea, a belief. But here, since there's a supporting infrastructure, since people WANT it to be true, and since the only way for a religion to be true for one person would be for it to be true for all, people DECIDE not to come to that conclusion.

Faith in science is nothing of the sort. It is trust. Because science is falsifiable, and relies on the ability to repeat experiments, it is quite logical and reasonable to trust it's findings. The air around us, while invisible can be seen either by viewing it's effects, or lowering its temperature and raising its pressure until it condenses. You can also watch things become part of the air. Like smoke, or steam, or dry ice. If you really wanted to, you could observe the planets in our solar system, do all the calculations, and if everything is done correctly, you will come to the conclusion that the earth is 3rd planet in the solar system. You won't, and neither will I, but you could, and that's very important.

"If A GOD could exist, why couldn't it be the Christian God?" -BT
By that logic, if a god could exist (which, of course, it COULD), why couldn't it be this one I just thought up that loves and hates everything, is both pure good and pure evil, and can make square circles and contain the universe in a single point? It could happen. Sure, it could. But as far as likelyhood goes, I think that's smaller than you can imagine. Also, there's no reason to believe it to be true. If there were churches that taught my god, and a book that detailed his miracles from thousands of years ago, and 90% of the people on earth believed he existed, there would still be no reason at all to think that to be the case.

Without faith in scientific laws, many things could be discovered scientifically. How do you think those scientific laws were found out? It didn't come in a vision, unless you count insight.

Whether or not the world came about as a result of god is not a matter of opinion. There is overwhelming evidence that the qualities of this planet came about through natural processes. Do deny that is not opinion, it's ignorance. You are free to say that god made the processes or whatever, but that's just an unsubstantiated claim, with just as much relevance as me saying that all the natural process were sneezed out of a Great Pink Sea Snail.

Finally, saying the bible has never been proven to be true is not an assumption. If anything, it's a conclusion. For the bible as a whole to be proven true, everything in it must be proven true. I can point out any number of parts which not only aren't proven, but can't be. If the bible cannot be proven true, it sure cannot be used to prove anything else true.

 

And really, when I say the posts on this page, I mean that last page with all the posts I read.

 

Fact to you, not a fact to others. it is your opinion.

 

Faith in one's findings is faith nonetheless, whether it is impermanent or not.
Therefore Faith as an act is objective.. it can be seen anywhere and everywhere.

 

You misunderstand me, I said the proof of God's existence is the bible. I did not say there is something about the bible that proves God's existence. I said Bible by its very existence is enough to show God exists.
When you reject the very idea that there is any truth to the bible, then you willfully not acknowledge the proof of God's existence.

Therefore it is your opinion.

 

Yes it is my opinion. Just as it is your opinion to keep thinking that bible is pure fantasy. Therefore, none of these things are facts. Thats the beauty of free speech. That is, we can hold opinions without being judged. The fact that you judge christianity based on your opinions , and repeatedly try to attack it is therefore , against free speech rights of christians. This is also my opinion.

 

Very well, you have the right to agree with your opinions.

 

I am not sure what you are referring to. But anyway , I will leave you to your illusions.