Use the system to rip the system!

With the politician issue, I could almost agree with them wanting to help, it depends how you define it. I believe alot of them think they're helping. If you would define that as trying to help, then fine. But I think the only reason they try is because of egotistical intentions, rather than any genuine desire to truly help anyone, and I maintain that people with that desire don't become politicians. I mean, I become uncomfortable with any absolutes, so maybe I shouldn't have said "period" but it comes pretty close if not. Mostly I think a politician's thinking they want to help is a denial, a rationalisation for their own power trips and ego trips.

Can't really disagree. I would say that the only reason this appeals is because of the psychological damage the elite has done to the rest of society, until all we want is comfort and safety, at the cost of liberty. But that's not a view I can easily argue for with someone who obviously feels very differently, let alone proove.

Tricky subject. Direct opposition to "the system" as a be-all and end-all will create that vacuum, as has happened most times a system has crumbled. But if the system is destroyed as a process of it becoming obsolete because have collectively evolved in both spirit and ideas, then not necessarily. But then again, the system can hold that process back, so small periods of power vacuums would not necessarily be wise to avoid.

So what, we have an authority to ward off other authorities? Better the devil you know? The argument is appealing if you believe in authority, again I'm not likely to change your views on that in a few sentences. And there probably will be chaos to come. It's like the bursting of a pus filled scab thats been band-aided over and built up. Kinda unstoppable.

See pus analogy above. The chaos results from the authority, expressed in its absense, not directly from the lack of authority. The government systematically keeps the people in question people poor and oppressed. Then when you have that sudden absense of authority, yes, look what happens, but to use that as a justification of authority is absurd.

It wasn't a personal attack, I just thought you were talking crap. I did read your point, from your later explanation I may have misinterpreted what you meant when you said "You must work in a system". That sounds like its impossible not to or against an imperative not to do so, which I naturally disagree with. But given you argue you'd have to leave the developed world to do so, obviously you didn't mean its impossible, and just meant that its inescapable. If so, I don't see how its relevent. So what, dropping out is hard. It isn't a justification for the continuation of the system. And you define the system pretty broadly if you include dealing drugs and mugging old ladies, I mean, how are you meant to escape if you include that! Its all part of the machine, man!

Ok, sure, I just don't see how it relates.

I made sure to say I didn't necessarily assume you would make the argument I was criticizing, its just one I hear alot. I mean, I'd therefore still disagree with you, I don't think these toys make us inherently happy and I won't accept any argument that says because I have them I should be happy or shouldn't complain.

Complaining is mildly fun. And if you think the system works for you, then there's no point me arguing. As for how it affects me and what way I'm oppressed, you're onto a good point in that there's a habit of talking about phantoms rather than concrete things that affect us. I'm not gonna pretend I'll prove anything to you. The thing is, the system is our lives, it's not separate, so its hard to say 'It's over there, thats clearly what it's doing'. The best place is to look into myself. Its there when I feel myself submitting to what people tell me to do because of my conditioning from school - a tool of the elite. It's there when I feel guilt and shame over my sexuality, from the unconcious moral conditioning from my parents, which is species-historically a result of the church - a tool of the elite. Its there when my creativity and whole wellbeing has been fucking destroyed from the acceptance of boredom and day in day out conditioning that has pitted part of myself against another part of myself, from both school and wage slavery. Its there when my environment is turned into nothing but boxes and roads, when my food has been altered beyond salvation, and when I need to debase and degrade myself to earn enough money to eat that food, or to pay the oh so fucking generous landlord to let me stay in "their" property. I've probably not even scratched the surface, I'm quite sure I'm incapable of doing so. And before you say it, yes, I need to take responsibility of these things, and it is also down to me, but to deny the social causes of these things is foolish and myopic.

 

So your right, and anybody who disagrees is wrong. What do you mean "the truth"? You are just as bad as as George Bush and the gang trying to bring democracy when the middle east just doesn't want it. Revolution starts within yourself, don't try to force things on people.

 

are you saying that the pepole in the midille east dont want democracy or are you saying that the rulers dont want democracy? i dont want facisim but apparently my rulers do! and why should accept what is being forced on all pepole of all nations in evry country in the world to benefit thos that perpetrate these atrocities? sorry but my keybord stiks,! i think all pepole want some form of democracy! or at least some form of equal rights and justice!! certainly dont get me wrong, the us of a has no! intention of bringing that to countries that need it i beleive the intentions are just the opposite! so how do WE bring equal rights and justice, into the forefront of disscussion???

 

Would you mind elaborating a little on how you plan to uproot rich people and blue-collar sheep to gain your freedom, and who decides what people actually fit into this category?

Also, while you are at it, I'd love an explanation of this truth that you are privy to?

If people learned to live their own lives without infringing on the rights of others to live, the world would be a better place.

 

OK, if you feel oppressed by the school system, why not become a teacher and change it.

If you feel oppressed by the church's teachings, bring your kids up differently.

If you don't want wage slavery, how do you plan to make a living? Letting others who pay taxes pay for your existence? Why not try to do something you don't find 'debasing and degrading'?

You don't need money to buy food, grow it.

Unfortunately, while we still have private land ownership, if you stay on somebody's property, you have to remunerate them in some way. But you can camp on public land for free. See TwoDog's '21 years in a 1973 Dodge' thread in the Camping forum.

There is no point in blaming the system for your unhappy existence if you don't do anything to better your own situation; and this can be done without infringing on others' rights to live how they see fit.

 

Just like you don't become a politician if you truly have desire to help, you don't become a teacher if you truly want to teach. Not that I necessarily do or don't either - I mean, what, I should become a teacher because I don't like the school system, even if I don't wanna teach? Seriously? Hey, let's protest the war by joining the army! The point is, you cannot reform something that's rotten to the core. Compulsory and state schooling, in its intrinsic purpose, exists as a means of control and conditioning, it is not there for the children, so trying to reform it is just *smacks head on table*.

"If you feel oppressed by the church's teachings, bring your kids up differently."

You seem to imply that criticism of what the church has done and does is unnecessary, otherwise you presumably wouldn't have bothered typing. The implication is so stupid I don't know what to say to it.

"Why not try to do something you don't find 'debasing and degrading'?"
On second thoughts maybe you just like to give really awesome original advice.

"You don't need money to buy food, grow it."
I tried this advice too. Seeds don't seem to like concrete. hmmm....

"But you can camp on public land for free"
So? Why should I have to? As i sarcastically implied in writing above, I don't have any reverence for people to believe they own the land under my feet.

The general theme of your post, that I should act practically and never be critical, seems to come from a lack of understanding that I am one with this system - when it destroys my will, observation is often the best thing I can do. And like I said, I didn't scratch the surface, so these aren't necessarily the real problems. "Practical" solutions don't always suit psychic/emotional/spiritual problems.

And I like complaining.

Didn't mean to be offensive, I get good vibes from you, I like some of your other posts. *shrug*

 

Exactly as I thought. The point of your post was to whinge, "Oh, look what society has done to me!" You seem to offer no possible solutions to any of your difficulties.

I, on the other hand, due to my strong contempt for the system we are 'forced' to live under, have tried and am continually trying to change what I can. I see no point in throwing my hands in the air and saying that all is gone to shit. I did enough of that as a teen.

I am no saint but I have realised what I can and cannot control in my life. The only way to change the system is to educate the future generations and as a teacher, you can have a direct input into how this might be done.

I was raised a strict Catholic but have absolutely no respect for organised religion. I have learned to get over my 'guilt complex' and get on with my life, I hope you do too. I will ensure that my kids have a broad moral upbringing but I don't believe that I have the right to force the disbandment of the church on anybody, when there are so many people who think otherwise.

Seeds don't like concrete? Move. Are you tied to the city? Go and live on a farm and earn your living through honest work, and have the benefit of eating what you grow. It's not that difficult.

You may not have any reverence for landowners, as I don't have any for land borders, but you do have to accept them for the time-being.

The system can only destroy those who allow it to do so. I hope you find a practical way to fight back and gain your independence.

 

"Exactly as I thought. The point of your post was to whinge, "Oh, look what society has done to me!" You seem to offer no possible solutions to any of your difficulties."

Even though the whole thread is about destroying the system? And my posts being about why? I'll grant you, its not a nitty gritty "practical" thing, but...
*sigh*. This is tiresome. I partly admitted to it being about complaining, but the main point of what I said was that critique is valid, regardless of what happens "after" it, cos you need to know whats happening, within and without, before you have any real control.

You think you offer solutions by the sorts of things you've said? Like some of the "practical advice" you've given? Hey, as long as you're doing something, it must be helping, right?

"Don't just do something, sit there!" It's kinda hard to explain this perspective. But its like, the "practical" side is really just running away from a problem. I even think that sounds stupid lol, it's not that activity is bad, its down to what is often called practical is falsely named. It's just a reactionary way to make you feel like you have control. I think helpful, virtuous or truly revolutionary activity needs no kick up the arse. If I'm feeling lazy or apathetic, or don't wanna work or do the things that I "rationally" should, it's not gonna stop the critique of the things that ail us from being "justified" - there's always reason for my behaviour - I do not have a will that stands apart, separate from the world and the system - I am the world, indeed this is why the system is so powerful - it is not an outside.

The teacher stuff I'd just be repeating myself.

"The system can only destroy those who allow it to do so."
This sounds like it is defiant, but it is not. How can you, as you claim, have any contempt for the system, when you absolve it of all responsibility?
It is just like the defiance you try and claim in practicality, it is false.

 

Well seeing as I've got no chance of persuading you to DO anything to improve your chances of avoiding the controlling reach of the system, I'll agree to disagree. I will however address your direct question.

I have in no way absolved the system of responsibility. I agree that our current political and educational climate is set up to control and manipulate us, which is of course, wrong. However, the responsibility for how you react to this falls fair and square on your shoulders. Only you can decide what you let run your life.

As for whether my defiance is false or not, I hardly think that you are in a position to judge considering how little you actually know of my personal situation.

I'll leave you with what I consider to be a rather apt quote by Henry David Thoreau...

"A truly good book teaches me better than to read it. I must soon lay it down, and commence living on its hint. What I began by reading, I must finish by acting."

The same can be said for all thought.

 

I quite agree with the quote and the call to action. At least in theory. haha, which i think is probably going towards a contradiction on my part.. I suppose action is not all about "doing". I can't be bothered for that subject, so I'll leave it there.


"However, the responsibility for how you react to this falls fair and square on your shoulders"

I totally agree. But that is totally different from "The system can only destroy those who allow it to do so."

"As for whether my defiance is false or not, I hardly think that you are in a position to judge considering how little you actually know of my personal situation."

Yep, ok.

 

I have to disagree. There is little or no difference between the two. Whether you allow yourself to be ground down and made to conform is up to you. If you choose to roll over and play dead, or stand still head-scratching in exasperation, it's up to you.

And ultimately, although the system can make certain things in your life difficult, you hold the key to how you live and more importantly, what you believe.

 

Do you consider mental and emotional hygeine just a matter of choice? As if they are not affected by the system? Either the system has power or it doesn't. You'll just rationalise it away again, so I'm out.

 

I think you raised a valid question here, that is why I took some time to mull it over.

And yes, excluding those who suffer from psychiatric illness due to chemical imbalances in the brain, I do consider mental and emotional hygiene a matter under our control as individuals. Sure, our surroundings can lead us to anger/disillusionment, but only if we let them.

I don't believe that outside influences control my mental/emotional wellbeing, except for maybe the weather, a little.