Vote democrat for now on

Like you, many others in this thread have protested that it's the NRA's fear mongering that causes it.

But as I've pointed out: If restricting gun ownership and attacking the 2nd amendment suddenly stopped being a party platform of the left, and all politicians embraced owning arms as a patriotic American tradition, the NRA would dissolve into a tiny gun club.

Gun sales went up in '06 when Pelosi took the house. Gun sales went up again in '08 when Obama got elected. That's the same year I took a firearms safety training and maintenance class.

The media places stronger emphasis on stories regarding violence when a gun is used. Only to sway public opinion to push for gun control. Oddly they don't emphasize it much when it comes to gun-related violence when it happens to gang members or ghetto areas. That's because stories like that don't shock the public, unlike a shooting in a movie theater, mall, airport, or school.

In case you live under a rock, Obama and Feinstine did attempt tougher restrictions on gun control nationwide. But failed mostly. However they were successful in achieving more gun control at the city and state level in numerous places.

And it seems a little odd that these shootings happened immediately after Obama's re-election. Gives him 4 more solid years to implement gun control policies. Could be a coincidence. Regardless, Obama is just exploiting lost lives for his political gains.

Why?

The demcratic party's anti 2nd amendment platforms cause nothing but blowback; they create a "better buy one before it's too late" mentality on the consumer market.

 

Yes, gun nuts are paranoid about democrats... that doesn't mean that they're 'attacking the 2nd amendment'. I really don't think the 2nd amendment accounts for the changes in weaponry over the past 230+ years. The Assault Weapons ban was also tabled by G.W. Bush... he just didn't follow through, probably because he knew it would be a mistake politically as his votership tends to lean right.

It doesn't mean that most of the hysteria isn't a direct result of smear campaigns/fear mongering by the NRA.

Most people believe that gang members have it coming. It's not really a secret that the media favors sensationalistic, attention-grabbing headlines... but the simple fact is the media can't make a boring story exciting, and gang members being shot is kind of boring.

I don't know how the media or anyone with a brain in their head is going to avoid the gun control issue when something like this happens. But the NRA is constantly watching for these kinds of things to happen so that they can also go on the offense, promoting guns and gun companies... it's a huge industry for both the US and Mexican drug lords.

Yes, I'm sure that the state and municipal governments had nothing to do with that at all.

BOTH sides exploited this issue to death. The NRA definitely won, though... there have been far more pro-gun policies passed since Sandy Hook than anti-gun... on the state level. Obama did pretty much nothing but talk, as usual. But seriously... you think that when something like this happens, the POTUS should just kick back, chill out and not say a word?

Maybe... but a lot of that is due to the hysteria bred by the right over their 'rights' and their 'freedoms'.

 

Coffee

You seem to be backing me up with your comment. You had argued that having guns are a way of saving you from repression but then you go on to admit that on the whole that doesn’t seem to happen.

Americans gun owners did not come to the aid of Japanese Americans, or the blacks being persecuted by the KKK, or striking workers and armed Germans didn’t help Hitler’s victims, and so on…

You blame ‘divide and conquer’ did you read what I’d said earlier about establishments and their manipulation.

Please read – http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=3658951&postcount=1

I didn’t reply to this question because it didn’t seem like a serious question and rather something thrown out in the heat of the moment that someone hadn’t thought through but….

First of all it a it’s a premise based in a negative, I mean who is to say he wouldn’t have got round to taking over Switzerland, once he had been victorious over the nations that had actually declared war on Germany, the Swiss were no threat so why bother? But he wasn’t victorious.
And second to me all the countries Germany was fighting in WW11 had armed populace – that was the nature of total war.

What shit and why is the shit so much more frightening shit - that people feel the need to have lethal weapons to hand?

So what did you mean by "rough neighborhood."?

And I grew up in the countryside and the people I knew didn’t feel the level of fear many Americans seem to have, there were many in remote areas that had no firearms, and this was before the time of cheap alarms and good locks.

But these days most people (that feel they need it) have good locks, movement activated lights and alarm systems etc.

And we do seem to have short response times to emergency calls but we are set up for that, but again there just doesn’t seem to be the fear.

But why are people so afraid that they feel the need to have the gun to show someone in the first place?

Homophobia as I understand it was “Coined by George Weinberg, a psychologist, in the 1960s” to describe a condition.

Hoplophobia seems to have been invented by a pro-gunner just to mock his opponents.

;
Why was she so terrified I don’t feel so frightened of my society and people that I meet anyone who comes to my door with a weapon in my hand.

In this incident did you look up to no good? What would you categories as ‘up to no good’?

All you did was drive up get out and greet the person there with a hello - you then told them your name, and that you were security for a film project taking place in the area. Is that in your opinion acting ‘up to no good’?

So someone parks outside my house, they come to my door and ring the bell. I’m in bed up stairs and I’m woken up (after a short argument over if its me or my wife that deals with) I go to the window and ask who it is. They ask for someone I don’t know I say I think they have the wrong house they ask if this is number X in X Street, I tell them they have the right number but wrong street and they apologize and go away.

Do you think I should have pulled a gun on them first and told them as she did “Get the hell out of here or you're gonna get shot!"?

 

coffee

I asked - Are you saying that you think if Americans didn’t have access to guns they would still kill as many people but only this time with shovels and such?

This is your reply - Yes, and they seem to do it a lot more often in your country and at a much higher rate.

I’m trying to work out your reply - but let’s see -

Well first the problem here is that it is very difficult to compare statistics on ‘violent crime’ between jurisdictions because of differing methods of categorizing and cataloguing what is defined as a violent crime.

But gun deaths well lets put gun related homicides for the UK and US in context

England and Wales – 73 (2001, BBC)

USA - 11,348 (2001, University of Utah)

England and Wales has around 60 million people compared with the USA’s of 280-300 million so lets boost the UK’s figure

60 million – 70 deaths
120 million – 140 deaths
180 million – 210 deaths
240 million – 280 deaths
300 million – 350 deaths

In fact I believe to get to the USA’s levels of gun related homicides we would need to increase the UK’s population some 160 times to 9,600 million people, the world’s population at this time is only 6,500 million

 

Coffee

I live in London it has a population of around 7.5 million and it only had 175 homicides (of all kinds) between Apr-2005 to Apr-2006. In fact in 2009 there were only 651 murders in the whole of England and Wales with a population of around 60 million.

But let us take an American city - Philadelphia – it, I believe has a population of around 6.1 million yet it had 406 homicides in that same year. So two Philadelphia’s with only 12.2 million people would create 812 murders, more than what is produced by 60 million Brits.

But if you take out gun related homicides from the US crime figures they do not seem that much different from those of many European countries that have gun restrictions (although as said it is incredible difficult to compare any crime statistics other than homicide).

So the question is are Americans more murderous or is it just that Americans have easier access to much more lethal weapons.

 

People re just protecting themselves because they realize the government has gone astray.

Glad you're selling guns though. I want a few more.

 

My belief is that guns need to be treated like cars.

License, registration, and insurance.



In my town* a 3yr old shot a 4yr old. ( Ages approximate )


They found bout a dozen guns in the fathers house.

My hope is that the insurance premiums will curtail multiple gun ownership.
add a layer of scrutiny, and pay these claims.






* Toms River, New Jersey
(1)disclaimer, I am not employed in the insurance industry.

 

"Gun Deaths" is a cop out; Because, this includes accidental shooting, suicide and, people shot in the midst of criminal activity. It bunches all guns deaths together, and doesn't actually say how many people was purposely murdered in cold blood.

Secondly, less people die from guns, than from falling. So, if the government is just trying to "protect" us, why don't we ban standing in high places?

Well, cause criminals don't listen to the law anyway, so, they'll still be jumping off of buildings and such, even if it were 'illegal'. It's the same with guns. Mexican drug cartels and criminals get illegal machine guns either way. It makes more sense for law abiding citizens to protect themselves, then to rely on the violent forceful entity of government, and sometimes have to sit and wait an hour or more, while a crime is being commited.

To me, prohibition of guns, drugs etc. just makes it seem like we "need" the government. But, if it weren't for all the insane laws America has, we'd have less violence, no drug cartels and, a freer society.

You're suggesting the opposite. You're saying the people shouldn't have power to protect ourselves- the government can do all that.

But, my problem with what you're saying, is that if the government turns on you, you're screwed. And cops in the USA shoot teenagers for having folded pocket knives in their pockets.


I think people who rely too much on government, totally fail to realize that we're creating a gang that thinks all the citizens are trying to kill them- and they act irrational.

They've raped women in patrol cars

They've started prostitution rings

Many of them steal/use drugs from evidence.

Most of them drink alcohol.

Most of them violate the Constitution by scaring kids into illegal searches.


And at the same time, Leftists want to give these guys and government even more power, by taking away the individuals power to protect ourselves.


I think it would cause more problems, and leftist would probably say we need more government to fix the shotty parts. It's a never-ending cycle, and government couldn't keep you safe in a prison "So how do they expect to fix the problem by making all of America a prison?"

 

25

Actually the total number of gun related deaths in the US in 2001 was 29,573

Suicide 16,869

Homicide 11,348

Accident 802

Legal Intervention 323

Undetermined 231

 

Hey thanks for that. Not as much government murders as I would've guessed nationwide- but, there's a vast amount of suicides as well. And, a good amount of those is probably soldiers. (we have a lot of ex-soldier suicides.)

But, all things included, America is a lot safer than Europe typically portrays us. And alot of the really dangerous places, are places that have very strict gun laws, like Chicago and Detroit. People smuggle them from out-of-town or state. And if it was illegal everywhere, they'd smuggle it from government employees and overseas.

I believe the immorality and violence of the government allows sociopaths and people with serious mental problems an excuse to justify violence. I believe if we didn't live in a society which glorified violence and recruit people out of high school for the military, perhaps there would be less problems.

Them problem is not legal guns, but rather, an immoral and detached people. There are people who commit violence over nothing, for money or pleasure. But, that is why citizens (especially ladies) owning guns is essential to safety in a free society. Government will never be above my Right to protect myself from criminals, or even them- because, that is one of the essentials of our freedom, and, it ensures that no government can continue but through the consent of the governed.

If we let them take our power of self defense, I would bet that total tyranny would follow.

 

25

The thing about the ‘gun death’ numbers once again highlights you dodgy methodology. You make assertions based on you ideological belief rather than making any effort to see if you actually are right.

And you also put forward arguments that are illogical to the point of silliness

Height isn’t a man made weapon specifically designed to kill or maim people. A cliff or tall building cannot be carried around as a means of killing people it cannot be used in a hold up or mugging.

And we do have many regulations and laws to try and lessen the risks related to height, such as building regulations and health and safety laws.

 

Gravity doesn't kill people, people kill people.

:afro:

 

Hello, I think you mean "offend people" to that breakdown in civilization.:afro:

 

The point is that the government couldn't keep us safe from weapons. It is like other people have said here, criminals can use steak knives, a baseball bat, or, even just buy illegal guns. The fact that Liberals want government to take law-abiding citizens gun's away, makes no sense when you consider all the force the government imposes.

My other point was that it's suppossibly to keep us safe, but, it should be obvious that the government alone will never be able to protect you from harm. No one can do that but yourself.

People need to be more independent, not less. You want government to take over our self defense methods, but think about it- only bad stuff happens when we let bureaucrats decide what we eat, drink and, what our morals are.

If I want to smoke weed, I should be able to do so. If I want a gun to protect my family, I have the right and freedom to do so. The fact that a good portion of the law is bogus should make everyone realize that it isn't the government's place to regulate our lives and morality, it is our own.


You even said, my views revolve around personal responsibilty. People should be safe with what they put into their body, as well as safe with way they store guns, drugs and other adult objects. We can't tell other people how to use their freedom in a free society.

You always try to say I use freedom as an excuse, but it's not. As I just said above, you have the freedom to do what you want with your body, You can Protect yourself, you can keep more of your money, and, government doesn't have the right to murder citizens without trial etc.

I think it's obvious that the problems with America have been caused because the corporate-sponsored government, has strayed much too far from it's founding principles.

Even people who support Obama, should see how his new Dictatorial Laws give much greater power to the Federal Government, and targets the people as the enemy. The people own guns as a last resort to protect ourselves from tyranny, and in my opinion, the shift in the opposite direction is due to a government agenda based around total control, spying, and criminalizing non violent people. That's why there's only 2 directions in this argument we consistently have.

Either, you're willing to put up with this garbage, and seal your lips for the "benefits" you get from government, or, you oppose it all.

You're with them or with us, because they keep taking away our freedoms, spying on citizens, killing citizens and, passing insane laws and regulations which are made for profit, and not the safety and happiness for the people.

There is no "happy medium" under these businessmen. There's so much in this system that isn't working. You talk about the last 40 years "proving" my views don't work, when, from the 1960's-today, government has expanded rapidly, which is completely contrary to my views.

And btw, guns save lives. Cops can take up to an hour to respond to a "shot fired" or "armed robbery" call, a better solution than government, is people protecting themselves..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EgsW2vRn1g"]PROOF that guns saves lives - YouTube


On top of that,cops, military and, DHS all have a history of crazies abusing their power.

http://rt.com/usa/taxas-cop-rap-arrest-281/

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2013/...n-spare-time-advocates-mass-murder-of-whites/


Imo, citizens protecting themself is an essential freedom, that if utilized more, would protect the country much better, rather than making us dependent children who need government agents with badges and their guns to protect us.

 

I read this as "if I can get enough then when the make a law I don't like I will just assassinate who I don't like" or "when things get to where we don't agree, don't work WITHIN the system, just have a revolution"

if everyone I have ever heard saying they hate the DemoPublicans and the way things are run would vote 3rd party (any of them) then the bums would be voted out and things would be different. They have everyone fooled into thinking it is either them or useless to do anything.

to only cite one example is unfair - how about Switzerland?

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/switzerland


Rate of Privately Owned Firearms per 100 Population - World Ranking

In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 178 countries, Switzerland ranked at No. 31


In Switzerland, the annual rate of all gun deaths per 100,000 population is

2011: 3.046
2010: 3.10
2009: 3.60
2008: 3.40
2007: 3.86
2006: 3.81
2005: 4.01
2004: 4.29
2003: 4.59
2002: 5.40
2001: 5.58
2000: 5.32


This indicates that a society CAN be safe with firearms. Our problem is twofold - being a violence oriented society, I have been assulted and almost killed but never attacked by anyone with a firearm. AND access to firearms. In my mind many things need to be done to at least strt to solve this problem, one big one is end the "drug war" it has obviously failed in it's STATED goal (that of reducing drug use and making people safer) of course they will not do so, it's ACTUAL goal was to gain greater control over the population and provide for the means of locking up "undesirables"

 

The king of the strawmen has spoken!

'Liberals' don't want to take ALL of your guns away. The laws Obama was proposing were only going to outlaw certain types of guns... along with better procedures for screening candidates for licenses. Restrictions aren't the same thing as confiscation or outright outlawing gun ownership.

Yes, this is exactly what Nancy Lanza believed. This is also what gangbangers believe... also cults, and troubled young people.

You keep trying to reduce everything to some simple, black and white issue when it's a lot more complex than that.

 

Overall I agree with your point, but I don't think comparing STP to gang bangers and cults is very constructive. And then we'll wonder why he comes back and responds all pissed off.

 

I wasn't comparing him to anyone. I don't think he's going to shoot up a school or kill people for drugs, and hopefully he doesn't have children who will find his gun and have an accident with it.

But I do think that most people who own guns believe themselves to be the 'good guys', and think that they have a 'natural right to defend themselves'... and sometimes this very mentality is what leads to violence.

Persecution complexes are notoriously great motivators... it's why they're so integral to effective propaganda. When you believe you're in the right/are being threatened, you can justify all kinds of things to yourself.

 

Some people just refuse to learn about the corruption of the 2-party system of control.

 

Yeah, that's why I gave up trying to enlighten and inform. So I troll those who still believe the political system of 2 rival groups ISN'T all smoke and mirrors.