What are your revolutionary demands?

There's a reason we don't have direct democracy on most things, it's terrible. We elect people so they can focus on political issues. I mean look at California, state was days away from bankruptcy and a lot of it has to do with all the propositions, people complain the government likes to spend money without paying for it, well it's even worse.

Also the fact, people generally have no idea how the government actually spends money. The federal budget is extremely complex, but even it's most basic forms all the time you see studies on what people want to cut, how much they think are actually spent on those programs compared to how much is actually spent. For example, I saw one study done where foreign aid was the top thing people wanted cut, fair enough. Except at the same time people also thought on average foreign aid made up between 10-20% of the budget, in reality it's less than half of one percent. Same with NASA, a lot of people seem to think NASA has a budget on par with the military, when in fact it's one of the smallest federal programs.

But to be more practical, we don't have time to constantly hold referdum after referendum, it'd be like local elections in odd number years, you'd get 10% of people going out to vote, how would that be any more fair than it is now. On top of it it'd be monstrously expensive, elections just don't happen, they cost a lot of money.

 

I wonder if voting from home and in designated voting places on computers would be feasable with the ability to detect hacking, so that results would be true representations of what the citizens wanted. The problem with our elected representatives is that the main object they have is to stay in office. I have a feeling that we would not be at war,for one example.

 

i was talking about my revolutionary demands, which would apply to the UK .... referendum's can and do happen here (five or so in the last four years, or thereabouts) and in this age of (almost) instantaneous communication they can and are implemented with varying degrees of success ..... as far as i can see, the only thing that stops them becoming a common part of political process is tradition and maybe public apathy..

dunno about the US my revolution has no interest in other countries

 

I'm pretty sure we'd be at war, the Iraqi war might have never happened. People forget 10 years later that Afghanistan was essentially no qualms from either side, both politicians and the general public, even the international community as a whole.

 

What does Britain have referendums on? I kept reading that the one the coalition government is going to have on alternate voting is the first national one since the one on EU membership in the 70's. Haven't the rest just been on the question of devolution? Or do the Scottish/Welsh assemblies hold numerous of their own?(I'd have to think if they do England must get pissed since England itself has no devolved powers)

 

Yeah, Chinese businesses and Wal-Mart. Fuck them.

 

newsflash, as much as Americans don't want to admit it, American business depends on Chinese business.

*edit*
Especially for the future, given current growth rates the Chinese economy is expected to surpass the US's in size in about 10 years. On top of it, a lot of economist actually think Chinese growth is underestimated due to a thriving black market.

 

Wal-Mart. Our cheap plastic shit costs more than the cheap Chinese plastic shit, which means that Wal-Mart customers would be able to buy less of it. It goes to the landfills pretty quick anyway. If there's a tragedy here, I can't see it.

 

1. The US economy(as well as most first world economies) is driven the service and financial sector
2. More expensive items means people spend less
3. People spending less has a rippling effect that slow economc growth
4. In worse case scenarios you wind up like Japan with its "lost decade" and face deflation, which near all economists agree wreaks havoc on investment and economic growth. This is why central banks actually try to keep a small yearly inflation rate.
5. Tens of millions of people depends on Wal-mart and how cheap its goods are. If you don't, that's fine, don't shop there. There's a reason Wal-Mart is so successful, because it gave millions of people a chance to break out of relative poverty and enjoy what had previously only been luxuries of the middle class.

 

This, regardless of what system is in place it should be simplified enough so that the common man can easily understand it without having to waste his entire life studying how the system works while it takes advantage of him

 

How would you describe the last decade? Everybody I know ended up worse off than they were at the beginning. It was a lost decade for me... Except for things that don't involve money.

I don't ever go in there.

Getting back to the OP, you make it sound like your version of a revolution in America would be doing whatever is best for China. That isn't a revolution. That's what we have right now.

It's also standard Republican Party propaganda.

I think you and I have very different definitions of what is middle class. Now that I have a place to live that has furniture and appliances, 99% of what I buy comes from the grocery store, drug store, and gas station. If you think accumulating junk is the key to a middle-class lifestyle, that is a problem that may be worthy of its own thread. Materialism is so 1985.

 

lol england has no devolved powers, yer funny :mickey:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

Ah, they all seem to be extremely local in nature though. I don't live in Britain, but I can't wait for the referendum on changing the voting system, it's a political junkie's wet dream.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_%28Japan%29

This is what we face now if the wrong decisions are made, and protectionism is not one of them. Trade fuels economic growth and demand, protectionism leads to economic stagnation, ask the 1930's. Also I don't see how you can say you're worse off than at the start, some people might be, some people aren't and just cynical, but the fact remains the standard of living for most people around the world has shot up dramatically since 1990, when the fall of communism allowed trade to start flourishing around the world like never before. Especially food. Food prices are a huge issue in the news because they've been rising, some things 30-40% in a year, in large part due to weather problems in heavy producing areas. What no one mentions though is that through the 90's up to a few years ago, most staple foods were at a historically low price when adjusted for inflation.

Also what's good for China is good for the US, much like what's good for Canada is generally good for the US, that tends to happen when you trade hundreds of billions worth of dollars of goods with a nation.

 

that's why you have revolutions ... to change how things are done...

you seem quite adamant that referendums would not work in the US ... do you not think that people should have more influence (or potential to influence) the decisions that are currently made on their behalf?

 

We have tons of referendums in the US as it is, referendums work fine, I'm just pointing out the fallacy in the notion that referendums somehow make things better, or the practical logistical aspects of trying to have a public vote on every single issue. As it stands, aside from all the actual referendums, our entire system here is built on voting. There's primaries to choose candidates in in every election from the most local to federal, you can legally write in candidates in most states, the vast majority of laws effecting a person's daily life will take place at the state or city level, not federal, and in New England, town hall meetings still often rule the local era where anyone can show up to a meeting and have public voice votes on issues.

The issue isn't referendums being bad, they're generally good. It's just they shouldn't be seen as a panacea especially in the way that was brought up of using them to decide most political actions. They come with problems of their own, but more importantly at least here, we have a system where people can vote in almost every level of government, yet if it's an off election year(no elections for federal bodies), you're lucky if voter turn out reaches 25%, primaries you're lucky if 10% of people go out. Endless referendums would just lead to the same problem unless you had them all on election day.

the current system many states and places like Switzerland have I think works fine, if a certain percentage of voters signs a petition to have a referendum on an issue, than its obviously enough of a buzz word issue to be put to public vote. This should be law everywhere.

But in terms of say general spending, how would anyone even hold a referendum on how to spend $3.5 trillion, especially when it has to be divided up among thousands and thousands and thousands of agencies, states, local authorities, private and government programs, international commitments, ect. It'd be a ballot with thousands of questions on it.

 

I sure as hell don't want to work in a manufacturing plant producing a lot of what I consume from China (feel free to insert your favorite foreign country that exports cheap goods to the US). Do you?

Protectionism leads to decreased spending power here, which means I have to spend more time working to buy the essentials. Which in the end leaves less money to spend on quality products/leisure activities/travel which in the end bankrupts small businesses because no one will 1) have the time to take part in that part of the economy due to work, 2) have the income to support those markets.

 

oh geezus.. not every referendum would be national ... the population of london hardly need decide if the a village in cumbria would rather see it's budget spent on better street lighting or more car parking facilities

i can see you are struggling a bit with the whole concept.. and i have no real interest in an american revolution, so i'll thank you for your reply and leave it at that

 

I never understood the fetish some people have for factory jobs. Yeah they're often well paying, and they're also generally either really hard, or really ridiculous in how mind numbing they are if you're on an assembly line doing the same exact thing day after day for 30 years. Not to mention how much more expensive things use to be compared to what they are now. The issue isn't free trade, the issue is our country has no programs in place to allow people to get an education, even young people who get into college get swamped with debt. Protecting obsolete jobs leads to economic stagnation and overall decay of your ability to compete internationally. Lack of educational opportunities combined with an astute welfare system leaves a lot of jobless pissed off people. It's best to fix our education system vs trying to keep our country in 1981.

That and a lot of people just fear change.

*edit*
Example of our broken education system. Republicans want to cut PELL grants, where here's a history of what they're worth

Not to mention your family has to be lower middle class at best to ever get the full amount.

 

That's why we have fences and shotguns :2thumbsup:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCd31LWyR8A&feature=player_embedded#at=52


Hotwater

 

I could easily list the names of 100 people I know personally who would say yes. Many would be relatives and old friends. They didn't mind the work, and loved the job security.

You don't seem to understand that factory jobs also directly and indirectly support many other jobs in the community, some that require college degrees. Just like the low-end service industry jobs do.

Most of America's prosperity came from so-called obsolete manufacturing jobs. Now that we have gotten "beyond" such things, our economy hasn't done so well. In fact, it sucks.

I get the idea that you don't know much about factories. When was the last time you were inside a factory?

I know families where three generations worked for the same company, and were very proud of their levels of skill and experience.

And people (often over 50) whose jobs have been eliminated are now expected to go through this expensive and unfair process twice.

Think these people are not ready for a revolution? Think again. Both main political parties have been for free trade because it's "good for America". Yeah, good for parts of it that I can't get to without a long airplane ride.

And I'm one of them. The town where I used to live was once home to one of the fastest growing manufacturing companies in the USA. Now, nobody has a job there better than hamburger flipper unless they drive more than 45 minutes to a job in another town. Their houses are worthless. I'm one of the lucky ones. I got the hell out, before it was too late.

The main reason why these discussions are so pointless is that most younger people say something to the effect that, "the changes are good for me, and I don't care about anybody else". I know a lot of people who did get an education, worked hard, did everything they were told to do, and now they have a 401k that is worth 30% of what it used to be, and they have a job mowing yards. Instead of the great retirement that they expected, they will be doing menial work until they die.

This is the new reality - that it's okay for some people who worked hard for decades and did their best to be left behind. It's okay, as long as the majority benefit. Compassion is a weakness. If this is the new America, then fuck it in the ass.